All About HYBRIDS

[observer]

Really, if someone is that tulus to save the planets oil, he should immediately stop selling large numbers of those gas guzzling Tundras, Land Cruisers, Sequias. U have tens of billions in cash. U can easily convert yr huge plant capacity to build hundereds of thousands of hybrids in a short time......

Tidak, dalam article saya cukup jelas bahwa hybrid adalah strategy Toyota untuk hedging terhadap resiko diserang environmentalist, dan ketidakstabilan pasokan dan harga minyak.

"Senior Toyota executives say the industry is still vulnerable to environmental activists and the political instability of oil-producing regions. Top company officials believe the industry hasn't done enough to respond to these challenges and hybrids, they say, act as a big hedge and would force rivals to keep pace....."

I remember I asked my relative who works for GE. Ask just a simple conversation, I ask, Gee, Whats Jack Welch's religion ? He said, I tell U, for most corporate bosses of mega companies, they utmost motive, religion is MONEY, more money to increase their share price, to increase their pay checks / bonuses. Nothing more.

Memang job description seorang CEO adalah untuk maximize shareholder wealth, given regulatory and moral constraints. Tapi terlalu extreme kalau dikatakan bahwa MONEY is their religion, karena seolah olah uang adalah segala galanya dan lain hal harus dikorbankan.

[conan]

I remember I asked my relative who works for GE. Ask just a simple conversation, I ask, Gee, Whats Jack Welch's religion ? He said, I tell U, for most corporate bosses of mega companies, they utmost motive, religion is MONEY, more money to increase their share price, to increase their pay checks / bonuses. Nothing more.

Memang job description seorang CEO adalah untuk maximize shareholder wealth, given regulatory and moral constraints. Tapi terlalu extreme kalau dikatakan bahwa MONEY is their religion, karena seolah olah uang adalah segala galanya dan lain hal harus dikorbankan.

Dalam hal ini, salah satu tugas CEO sebuah pabrikan mobil adalah memastikan the survival of their company. Karena mereka menjual mobil, dan mobil membakar minyak, jika minyak habis, mereka mau jual apa?
Nah, dengan logika itulah, CEO yang bagus akan mencari sumber tenaga alternative and make sure that their cars can run on that new fuel. Jadi kalau minyak habis pun tidak masalah, mereka tetap bisa menjual mobil. Makes sense?

Give me realism over idealism any day, but being an idealist doesn't mean one has to stop being a realist!

[calvin99]

bung sithlord, udah test drive prius blom? gimana kesan2nya? udah ada kan tuh di salah satu IU..

buat yg sering melewati jalan-jalan yg lagi bangun jalur busway akhir2 ini, pasti sering banget kena macet kan? sering banget kan mobilnya berenti bermenit-menit, tapi mesin nyala trus...

mau matiin mesin tapi ntar malah kepanasan di dalem mobil, blom lagi kalo ntar tiba2 jalan... bisa2 nggak keburu nyalain mesinnya.. serba salah...
tapi kalo mesin nyala trus kok rasanya kita ini ngebakar duit banget yaa.. udah tau bensin mahal sekarang..

menurut saya hybrid cocok bgt d kalo dipake kaya di jkt ini.

malah akhir2 ini saya perhatikan motor2 kalo lagi brenti lampu merah suka juga matiin mesinnya...(satu hal yg dulu jarang banget dilakukan kayanya), begitu udah mau jalan baru dia nyalain lagi motornya...

btw, terusin donk nih ngomongin hybridnya.... kok malah gak ada kelanjutannya ini thread....???

[WP]

kayanya REINKARNASI "musuh bebuyutan" detective belum datang tuh di sini....

[jetcar]

hehehehe,,
mangnya kalo mobil2 hibrid itu jadi masuk sini bakal dijual brapaan sih?

[Sithlord]

Bung Jetcar, jika anda interested, anda bisa beli Toyota Prius gres dari IU harga 450 juta OTR !

Jangan lanjutin deh ! Nanti suhunya terlalu panas, takutnya NUCLEAR EXPLOSION ! SM jadi Nagasaki ! Hancur total !

Bung Calvin99, jika anda kaya, dan mau irit BBM saat macet, itu Prius memang cocok.

Cuman I got to tell U, di luar negeri, info yang saya dapet, harga spare batterynya saja jika rusak adalah sekitar 3000an dollar. Thats 30 juta ! Itupun ngak tau di ringgankan tax incentive juga atau tidak.

Kalau saya ada uang 450 juta, mending beli Harrier bekas atau Alphard standard. Masalahnya 2 mobil ini biaya servicenya sudah ketahuan. Itu itu saja.

Tapi hybrid, kalau ada apa apa, who knows what the real overall service / spare parts costs will be ? Jangan lupa. Di Indonesia mobil hybrid sama sekali belom dapat keringgankan pajak sama sekali.

U are on your OWN ! As for test drive, seperti kenapa saya ngak mau test drive BMW seri 3. Sudah jelas harganya terlalu mahal, not worth the money, test drive kalau ngak beli, ngak enak dong !

[jetcar]

iya prius kan udah tau.
saya kan jg udah pernah posting perbandingan biaya operasional prius dgn altis.

tapi yg saya pingin tau camry hybrid, alphard hybrid dll..

[Turboman]

IMHO :

Mobil2 gasoline hybrid layak dibeli jika kondisi2 di bawah ini terpenuhi :

1. Harganya hanya sedikit lebih mahal dr versi conventional gasoline

2. Harga Spare Partsnya terjangkau & mudah didapat

3. Komponen electric (Electro Motor dll.) telah terbukti tahan air / tahan melewati banjir


Sebab jika bicara dari segi konsumsi BBM, hingga hari ini mobil gasoline hybrid itu tidak lebih hemat dari sebuah mobil diesel konvnesional yg sekelas. Di bawah ini ada test mobil hybrid vs. diesel yg sekelas :

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/08 ... ts_hy.html


So jangan mudah termakan rayuan gombal produsen otomotif sebelum fakta - fakta di lapangan membuktikan kenyataan yg sesungguhnya.


Sekedar opini / koreksi kalau salah / mohon maap bila kurang berkenan

[Sithlord]

Bung jetcar,

I see. Its a misunderstanding ! OK I get what U mean. Well. Saat ini cuman Prius terjual. Camry hybrid, Alphard hybrid etc belum ada yang jual. Memang Top Gear (or is it Autobild) ada mention, ada IU yang lagi pelajarin dan mungkin mau jual Alphard hybrid and/or Lexux Rh ++ hybrid.

Cuman saya pakai logika saja. Prius is a small mini sedan (or hatchback or MPV). Mesin ngak lebih dari 2000 cc. Artinya pajak CBU dia sudah paling murah. Nah ! Itupun sudah 450 juta !

So tinggal extrapolate sendiri. In my estimation, a Camry hybrid will set U back for perhaps hampir 600 juta. Alphard 2.4 hybrid should be about 700-800+ juta, dan Alphard 3.0 hybrid lebih dari 1 milliar ! Ini assumsi pajak sekarang yang berlaku tetap apply to all hybrids !

So I want to see nanti sudah di jual IU, who wants to pay for an Alphard 2.4 hybrid that is EXACTLY the same as the gasoline, cuman beda hybrid yang perlu keluar extra berapa ratusan juta lagi. Tinggal hitung sendiri balik modalnya berapa lama. Belum hadapai ongkos service / sparepart / asuransi yang belum jelas dan pasti jauh lebih mahal !

Bung Turboman. HAHAHA ! Saya tidak salah ! U have the makings of an awesome Sithlord ! Obviously U have done a lot of research ! Website yang anda sebutkan saya sudah pernah baca, cuman saya sadar galaxy bisa capek lihat saya ama Jedi Conan perang terus.

Jadi demi peace, saya ngak mau extend these arguments. But once U did more internet research, anda akan sadar, masih banyak orang USA juga yang ragu about the long term consumer embrace of hybrids !

Like Ghosn said " Hybrid are currently heavily subsidised by tax payers. SUCH A STATE OF AFFAIRS CANNOT LAST FOREVER ! " Kalau biaya hybrid tidak turun dalam berapa tahun lagi, lama lama taxpayer bisa capek !

Anyway, saya juga sudah ketemu banyak article yang sebut angka consumsi BBM hybrid in reality lebih boros dari yang di janjikan produsen, dan juga memang mesin diesel bagus bisa tanding ama hybrid dalam hal hybrid, dan enaknya konsumen tidak perlu di subsidi, tidak perlu bayar extra, tidak perlu hadapi ongkos service / sparepart yang mahal.

Of course one might say diesel hybrid. Well, bensin hybrid saja masih belum mature, apalagi diesel hybrid ? Lebih rumit dan mahal lagi !

Want to know more ? Continue to research and U will find many many interesting pro and contra debate about this hybrid thing. Lebih seru dari perang dulu antara saya ama Jedi Conan.

But well, lets keep the peace and masing masing research sendiri deh...

[Sithlord]

Heres a good article in my collection :

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=7269

Hybrids: Where Are the Profits?
Can a case be made for making money off the newest auto celebrities?
by Gary Witzenburg (2004-06-27)

Is there a viable (meaning profitable) future for hybrid electric vehicles (HEVs)?

Honda's two-seat Insight was first to hit U.S. shores in 1999. Except for GM's fullelectric EV1, which was mercifully euthanized that same year, it was (and is) the most energyefficient production automobile on the planet. Toyota's Prius, a less efficient but more powerful and practical small sedan that debuted in Japan in 1997, arrived in 2000.

Honda countered with its Civic Hybrid in 2002, and Toyota trumped that last October with its Gen II Prius, powered by its thirdgeneration Hybrid Synergy Drive (HSD).

Claiming 12,000 advance orders and 10k deliveries in the first six weeks, Toyota upped its '04 U.S. Prius ante from 36k to 47k - still less than 0.28 percent of a 17 million vehicle year. Honda, meanwhile, through 2003 had moved a total of 47k U.S. hybrids, 75 percent of them Civics.

Despite their high efficiency, low emissions and (heavily subsidized) low prices, these pioneer HEVs have been handicapped here as small cars in a large-vehicle market and by concerns over long-term durability, used-vehicle value and scary potential costs of replacement motors, controllers, and battery packs once the warranty is done.

More significant than Toyota's larger, more powerful and more efficient '04 Prius, however, are its '05 Toyota Highlander and Lexus RX 400h crossover SUV hybrids. These will demonstrate one key way in which the company intends to make a business of HEVs - by positioning them at the tops of their ranges with higher content, performance and efficiency vs. conventional counterparts. Americans are typically eager to pay for luxury, features, performance, and prestige, but not yet for "greenness."

Honda will soon offer an Accord HEV with higher performance than its 240-hp V-6 model.

GM and Ford are about to launch hybrid trucks and SUVs promising substantial fuel savings with little or no sacrifice in performance or capability. And Toyota will market its HSD to Nissan and others who choose not to invest their own billions in HEV development - exactly the business case GM envisioned for its once industry-leading battery EV technology.

There are good reasons why most automakers have been reluctant to hop headlong onto the HEV bandwagon. One is weight - batteries, motors, controllers, and wiring are heavy. Another is packaging - all that extra componentry takes up valuable space. Another is the daunting development challenge of seamlessly blending ICE and electric torque, friction and regenerative braking, engine stops and starts, electric power steering and HVAC.

But the giant skeleton in every HEV's closet is COST. Anyone who has any idea what these dual powertrain components really cost will know that Toyota is stretching credibility to claim that even the simpler Echo-based Gen I Prius was profitable at its $20k price. By contrast, the '04 is a unique, high-content car on a dedicated platform, and its nickel-metal hydride (NiMH) battery pack probably costs a quarter of its (still) $20k base price.

By selling small volumes of $40K HEVs at half price, Toyota and Honda have reaped huge PR benefits while concealing the actual cost of hybrid technology from customers and, more importantly, from technologically ignorant media and environmental advocates. But how long will they continue heavy subsidies as they drive HEV content, capabilities, and volumes upward? The coming Lexus RX 400h is so packed with expensive hardware and software, including a second electric motor driving the rear axle in all-wheel-drive versions, that it will have to carry either a very hefty sticker or a substantial subsidy, or both, to sell even as the top-of-the-line RX model.

GM's EV1 was cute, quick and fun to drive. It could manage 70-90 miles on the energy equivalent of a half-gallon of gas in its 1200-lb lead-acid battery pack, and nearly twice that with a much more expensive NiMH pack. But GM's earnest intent to make and lead a viable business in battery electrics went south, along with its half-billion dollar investment, when the needed breakthrough battery never materialized.

Toyota's intent to make and lead a viable business in HEVs seems more realizable. But it will not succeed until the capability and desirability - not just the efficiency - of HEVs can overcome their weight, packaging, complexity, and ultra-high cost disadvantages.

Courtesy Automotive Industries Online, http://www.ai-online.com.

Gary Witzenburg, a former advanced technology engineering manager and part-time racing driver, is a widely published auto writer and Editor at Large of Automotive Industries.

[Sithlord]

Another :

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=7077

Time Out at the No Free Lunch CAFE
What has CAFE really done to our driving habits?
by Gary Witzenburg (2004-04-26)

It's human nature for people to believe what they want to and disbelieve what they don't. That must be why so many believe the paid professional advocates (PPAs) who earn their livings shilling for pressure groups such as the Sierra Club and the Union of Concerned Scientists when they say we can have something for nothing - the proverbial "free lunch" - simply because they desperately want it.

These vocal but technically ignorant types swarm around every auto industry issue, but none more than CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy), that misguided and misunderstood law that mandates economy for every maker's entire sales fleet.

PPAs and politicians insist that automakers could deliver 40-mpg SUVs if they really wanted to. Equally ignorant mainstream media, who tend to believe PPAs without question, excoriate "Detroit" for "resisting the need for higher economy" while conveniently ignoring the fact that every other automaker - including the two who have painted themselves ultra-"green" by selling a few thousand heavily subsidized hybrids - are boosting sales of their biggest, heaviest, least fuel efficient trucks and SUVs as fast as they can.

As an engineer who spent a number of years toiling on a major manufacturer's vehicle efficiency team, allow me to explain some simple facts. First, a vehicle's fuel consumption is mostly a function of its weight. It takes X energy to move Y pounds at Z speed. Acceleration of that mass to that speed uses a big chunk of energy. Aerodynamic drag then plays a major role.

Engineers can reduce a vehicle's consumption primarily by reducing its size and weight and secondarily by streamlining its body. Beyond these major factors, what remains are incremental enhancements in vehicle and powertrain efficiency.

But the easiest, most affordable improvements were made long ago. What remains are measures worth tenths of miles per gallon at much higher costs. And, contrary to what PPAs want us to believe, most work on the same efficiency factors, so they are not accumulative.

PPAs add up the most optimistic potential of all available and experimental technologies, regardless of cost and production feasibility - while discounting the enormous cost and years of time required to develop and validate each one to ensure its long-term safety, quality, reliability, and durability - to claim that automakers have technology "on the shelf" to deliver 40-mpg SUVs.

But if any company could really achieve that, without inflating the price to an uncompetitive level, why would it not? It would blow its competition away!

CAFE mandates the sales-weighted average economy of the total car and truck fleets each company sells in a given year. A full-line automaker, because it would take a decade and billions of dollars to redesign its entire fleet, realistically has to change the "mix" of vehicles it sells to meaningfully raise its CAFE average.

It must somehow sell more of the smaller, more fuel-efficient vehicles that few Americans want as long as gas remains plentiful and cheap, and fewer of the larger, more powerful, less efficient ones that buyers increasingly demand.

European and Japanese makers, who have long specialized in fuel-efficient small vehicles designed and developed for their own high-fuel-cost markets, mostly favor raising CAFE because it would give them a huge competitive advantage.

U.S. makers, long dominant in larger vehicles, would be forced to sell far fewer of them, while off-shore brands could continue to expand sales of their larger, more profitable vehicles.

Cars and trucks weigh what they do primarily because of their capabilities. They are the size and weight they are to carry what they do, tow what they do, perform as they do and protect occupants in crashes as well as they do, at a given price level.

A higher-economy SUV is by definition smaller and less capable. What combination of capabilities and features would buyers be willing to sacrifice for higher efficiency: Cargo capacity? Towing capability? Off-road and/or all-weather capability? Roominess? Ride? Occupant protection? Affordability?

"If you want people to eat less, you raise the price of food," says GM North America Chairman Bob Lutz. "Instead, what the government is trying to do with CAFE is fight national obesity by making the clothing industry manufacture only small sizes."

Contrary to what PPAs, politicians and the popular press want us to believe - and as much as we all wish there were - there is no free lunch at this CAFE.

[jetcar]

wihhhh... alphard 3.0 seharga 1m+, mending gue beli range rover sport lah!
kalo gue bisa beli mobil seharga 1m pasti ga mikirin bbm yg boros.

[conan]

Sebenarnya aku sudah capek berdebat soal ini. Dijelaskan berkali2 pun tetap saja Dark Lord tidak mau mengerti. Semuanya karena pelopor hybrid itu Toyota dan bukan NISSAN. Coba kalau pelopornya Nissan, pasti dia sudah memuji2 hybrid.

Mr. Turboman, diesel itu memang bisa lebih irit daripada hybrid kalau ditest di pada kecepatan tinggi dan stabil di jalan seperti autobahn. Anda tahu kenapa di Jepang diesel belum populer, dan diesel2 buatan Toyota/Honda/Nissan lebih banyak ditujukan untuk pasar Eropa, dimana diesel memang sudah populer? Karena lalu lintas di Eropa relatif lebih lancar, dan jalan2nya panjang2 seperti autobahn di Jerman. Sedangkan di Jepang, di Tokyo dan semua kota2 lainnya, lalu lintas sangat padat. Seperti Jakarta, Bangkok. Banyak kondisi stop and go. Kalau Anda mengerti cara kerja hybrid, pada kondisi inilah justru mobil hybrid menjadi bahkan lebih irit drpd di tol. Terbalik dengan mesin bensin konvensional dan mesin diesel, yang tetap membakar BBM pada kondisi idle. Semakin macet, semakin boros. Betul tidak? Pada hybrid, sebaliknya.

Tujuan thread ini seharusnya bukan untuk membandingkan diesel vs hybrid atau hybrid vs non-hybrid. Karena hybrid itu juga akan digunakan pada mesin diesel, selain pada mesin bensin. Mercedes sudah memiliki teknologi Bluetech (cmiiw) yang merupakan mesin diesel hybrid, dan lebih irit lagi daripada diesel biasa!

Sekali lagi, hybrid adalah kombinasi mesin combustion konvensional (peminum BBM) + motor listrik.
Jadi mesin bensin + motor listrik = hybrid.
Mesin diesel + motor listrik = hybrid.
Jangan anggap hybrid itu pesaing mesin bensin atau diesel. Sama sekali bukan! Mesin bensin atau diesel yang paling irit pun, jika ditambah motor listrik untuk membantu, akan semakin irit lagi!

Iritnya diesel juga mulai didekati dan akan bisa terlampaui oleh teknologi bensin yang sudah menggunakan direct injection + turbocharger. Tapi diesel juga akan dikembangkan dengan teknologi hybrid, dan demikian pula dengan mesin bensin direct injection.

Last but not least, Dark Lord sembarangan saja! Enak saja melebih2kan harga mobil hybrid hanya karena dia sentimen pada hybrid.

Mr. jetcar, harga Alphard hybrid hanya sekitar 20-25% lebih mahal daripada Alphard biasa (yang 2.4L, bukan 3.0L). Kini asosiasi importir umum sedang mengajukan pada pemerintah untuk pajak yg lebih rendah. Seperti disebut oleh autobild, ini adalah kebijakan yang mulia. Jangan dengarkan Dark Lord yang fanatik against hybrid. Sekali lagi, duit itu bukan segalanya. Ini bukan soal menghemat duit, tapi menghemat fossil fuel (BBM) untuk generasi anak cucu kita. Minyak bumi itu daripada dibakar sebagai BBM, jauh lebih berguna diolah untuk kebutuhan lain, yang selanjutnya bisa didaur ulang lagi juga, tidak menjadi asap polusi jika dibakar sebagai BBM.

Our future generation will be amazed that the very precious fossil fuels were once burned as fuel.
Kalau bisa menggerakkan jutaan mobil dengan energi listrik, buat apa terus2an membakar minyak bumi, yang membutuhkan jutaan tahun untuk terbentuk? Sedangkan listrik bisa dibuat, bahkan dari angin!

Dark Lord seperti biasa hanya ngomong saja tanpa mencari tahu dulu faktanya : Alphard hybrid itu tidak ada yg 3.0L, hanya ada 2.4L. mengapa tidak perlu yg 3.0L? Karena dengan tambahan motor listrik, tenaganya sudah setara dengan versi biasa yg 3.0L, tapi fuel consumptionnya seirit Alphard biasa 2.4L, bahkan bisa lebih irit!

Untuk ATPM, aku berharap Honda akan menjadi pelopor. Karena Civic hybrid sudah dijual di Thailand, Singapore and Malaysia. Semua negara ini menerapkan pajak lebih rendah untuk hybrid, karena mereka berwawasan lingkungan dan berwawasan masa depan, tidak seperti pemerintah sini yang 'berwawasan menggenjot penerimaan negara sebesar2nya dengan PPnBM sebesar2nya'. Semoga mereka bisa mengikuti jejak negara2 tetangga, yang dengan kebijakan2nya yg berbeda, sudah terbukti lebih maju daripada kita.

Untuk Indo, yang paling ideal adalah diesel, karena kita punya potensi biodiesel yang sangat besar. Tapi selama model2 yg laku di Indo masih lebih banyak model dr Jepang drpd Eropa, maka hybrid akan ada juga di Indo. Dan maksudku bukan Prius, tapi Civic hybrid, Harrier hybrid, Alphard hybrid, Estima hybrid, Accord hybrid, next gen Noah/Voxy hybrid dan banyak lagi.

Harga mereka hanya akan sedikit lebih mahal drpd versi biasanya, apalagi kalau pajaknya sudah lebih rendah, harganya bisa sama dengan yg biasa. Jangan kuatir, kini asosiasi IU akan merintis pasar hybrid di Indo dan setelah beberapa tahun para ATPM juga akan menyusul.

This thread is a couple of years too early. Aku menyesal membuatnya. Lihat saja beberapa tahun lagi. Mungkin para menteri pun akan menggunakan Camry hybrid untuk mempromosikannya.

Hybrid, be it with petrol, with diesel, or with fuel cell, is the future we should embrace, not sneer at.

Satu saat, bumi ini akan mulai kekurangan persediaan minyak bumi, sedangkan jumlah mobil semakin banyak, dr tahun ke tahun.

Solusinya adalah teknologi, apapun, yg bisa lebih efisien dalam menghasilkan energi. Dan bahan bakar yg bisa diperbarui, seperti biodiesel dan bensin etanol.

Buat apa bertengkar tentang teknologi mana yg dibela? Bukankah lebih baik kalau semuanya berhasil?

This is my last word. I'm out of here. Let's talk again in a couple of years from now.

[Turboman]

IMHO :


Yang saya pernah baca utk market Jepang yang paling populer itu adalah micro car dengan mesin 660 cc, populasinya mencapai 30 - 33% dr total populasi mobil pribadi di sana.

Mobil hybrid yg ekonomis utk city driving yg dilengkapi smart idling system, dimana mesin mati pada saat stop / berjalan amat pelan (CMIIW), saya pernah lihat demo nya Prius di Discovery channel, dimana si test driver cruising jalan2 kecil di suatu kota di Italy dengan pure electro motor (mesin mati).

System hybrid juga sudah banyak yg menggunakan main propulsion diesel engines, terutama utk kendaraan besar, bus / truk, utk mobil penumpang Daimler Chrysler menjadi pioneer dengan merilis S class & Vision GST hybrid (CMIIW). Sedang system hybrid utk kendaraan super besar spt truk2 raksasa Caterpillar utk proyek pertambangan, lokomotif diesel hybrid hingga kapal laut sudah ada sejak lama.

Efek system hybrid utk jalan tol, kalau melihat dari keterangan teknis yg ada di web Isuzu :

http://www.isuzu.co.jp/world/technology ... t6/01.html

http://www.isuzu.co.jp/world/technology ... t6/03.html

Dimana electro motor berfungsi sebagai generator utk menghasilkan GGL ketika mobil berdeselerasi / meluncur di jalan bebas hambatan, seharusnya dengan pemanfaatan hybrid system juga tetap akan memberikan penghematan bahan bakar bila kendaraan dioperasikan di jalan tol, malah batere Litium Ion mungkin akan tercharge dengan optimal ketika mobil meluncur di jalan tol (CMIIW)


Sekedar opini / koreksi kalau salah / mohon pencerahan dari para pakar di sini yg sudah expert utk menambah wawasan pengetahuan saya yg sgt minim ini ^_^


Jabat Erat

[conan]

IMHO :


Dimana electro motor berfungsi sebagai generator utk menghasilkan GGL ketika mobil berdeselerasi / meluncur di jalan bebas hambatan, seharusnya dengan pemanfaatan hybrid system juga tetap akan memberikan penghematan bahan bakar bila kendaraan dioperasikan di jalan tol, malah batere Litium Ion mungkin akan tercharge dengan optimal ketika mobil meluncur di jalan tol (CMIIW)

Benar, tapi ingat kata deselerasi. Berarti kadang2 pedal gas dilepas, maka battery bisa tercharged sampai full.
Hal ini percuma jika pengemudinya tidak pernah melepas pedal gas dan terus2an menginjak pedal gas karena tidak paham cara kerja mobil hybrid. Cara mengemudi hybrid yg salah seperti inilah yang menyebabkan ada laporan mobil hybrid tidak seirit seharusnya. Bukan salah teknologinya, tapi penggunanya (gaptek).

Dengan cara mengemudi hybrid yg benar, banyak pemilik Prius yang dengan mudah mendapatkan fuel ratio 1 liter : 35 - 40 Km. Bahkan dengan memanfaatkan dengan jeli 'battery only mode' (standar pada Prius Japan, not available on Prius USA), ada yg bisa mencapai 1 liter : 50 Km.

Bagi yg berminat membaca lebih lanjut, go to http://www.priuschat.com.

[TomS]

Ini opini pribadi saya :

Hybrid dan diesel, hybrid dan bensin, hybrid dan rotary itu kalau dikategorikan jenis barang di teori ekonomi adalah barang komplementer (contoh gampangnya teh dan gula).
Bensin dan diesel adalah barang subsitusi seperti misalnya teh dan kopi.
Jadi tolong jangan dibandingkan antara diesel dan hybrid

Cara pandang melihat hybrid paling simple dan gampang itu adalah hybrid sebagai power booster.
Jadi di masa depan, speedlover akan ada lagi pilihan cangkok hybrid, selain cangkok turbo dan cangkok NOS !!!!!
Bedanya adalah cangkok turbo dan cangkok NOS ujung-ujungnya perlu bahan bakar fossil yang gede, sedangkan cangkok hybrid tidak, karena pakai tenaga baterai. Torsinya juga yahud
Jadi hybrid itu masa depan, kalau belum kebayang, kebangetan
Jadi di masa depan, selain boost turbo, berapa elektromotor yang dicangkok di roda untuk menambah power akan jadi bahan pembicaraan speedlover.
Atau mungkin yang gendeng, pasang sekali tiga, turbo, NOS dan Hybrid

Untuk orang yang mementingkan hemat energi, pola pikir / sudut pandangnya dirubah, bagaimana caranya untuk mendapatkan power yang sama dengan isi silinder yang lebih kecil atau jika pun silindernya terpaksa sama, bensinnya harus lebih irit (dengan cara mencekik pompa bensin misalnya), hasilnya tentu saja tenaga dari mesin bensin kurang dan kekurangan tenaga mesin bensin itu akan ditambal dengan tenaga baterai.

Dewasa ini pun, banyak mobil-mobil gede seperti S Class, Crown Majesta, Crown Royal yang sebenarnya semi hybrid.
Biasanya mereka memakai accu dengan voltase mendekati atau bahkan melebihi 40 Volt (accu biasa cuma 12 Volt)
Dengan tegangan gede tersebut arus yang dihasilkan bertambah gede juga, akibatnya bisa digunakan untuk menggerakkan elektromotor yang akan digunakan untuk oil pump, kompressor AC, power steering, water pump, bahkan buka tutup katup yang biasanya menggunakan camshaft.
Hasilnya tentu saja mesin lebih irit, karena beban mesin berkurang.
Secara sederhana, kita biasa melakukan cara di atas, yaitu kalau kita ngebut dan gas sudah mentok, untuk menambah speed kita biasanya mematikan AC.
Kalau gak ada limiter, dijamin top speed akan nambah lagi dan tentu saja tarikan lebih kenceng
Jika elektromotor itu digunakan untuk menggerakkan roda, jadilah yang namanya mobil hybrid

Terus masalah harga mobil hybrid mahal itu juga bukan karena faktor hybrid-nya tapi karena faktor bea masuk sedan cbu yang mahal di sini.
Belum lagi harga perdana di Indo, yang biasanya IU akan cari margin lebih
Maka itu coba aku tanya, tolong berikan contoh sedan cbu Jepang yang dijual murah di sini ?
IU pun ogah masukin sedan sedan biasa (selain sport) karena pangsa pasarnya gak ada karena harganya akan terlalu mahal.
MRS saja yang cuma JPY 2,000,000 bisa sampai sini hampir Rp. 500 juta
Jadi salah kaprah dan kurang gaul kalau bilang harga Prius mahal karena hybrid

Mengenai harga battery yang mahal, tentu saja, karena ini teknologi baru, makin banyak yang terjual akan makin murah.
Atau mungkin suruh saja RRC bikin battery-nya dijamin jadi murah.
TV LCD 27" saja sekarang cuma di bawah Rp. 10 juta, dulunya berapa duit coba ?

Terus namanya teknologi baru tentu saja orang masih takut, jadi di sini yang diperlukan adalah peran dari pemerintah
Pemerintah juga sebenarnya hitung-hitungannya simple, tinggal ngelihat apakah untung dan ruginya bagi anggaran mereka.
Di samping itu juga yang gak kalah penting pemerintah harus mempunyai visi ke depan untuk memikirkan generasi mendatang atau istilah awamnya jangan pikirannya cupat dan pendek
Harusnya kalau level sudah tinggi, orang itu makin bijak, dan mikirin banyak hal, gak cuma urusan perutnya sendiri saja

Kalau hybrid bayar bea-nya bisa mirip-mirip bea toyota wish saya akan mulai mikir untuk membelinya, tapi kalau seperti sekarang, beanya adalah bea sedan, nanti dulu belinya, tunggu bensin ceban baru aku beli

Hybrid itu pilihan yang reasonable dibanding fuel cell
Pakai LNG saja meledak di Indo (baru ramai nih kasusnya), gimana mau pakai fuel cell. Habis itu teknologinya juga belum sampai ke situ (masih mahal banget)

[ween]

Sebenarnya aku sudah capek berdebat soal ini. Dijelaskan berkali2 pun tetap saja Dark Lord tidak mau mengerti. Semuanya karena pelopor hybrid itu Toyota dan bukan NISSAN. Coba kalau pelopornya Nissan, pasti dia sudah memuji2 hybrid.

bukannya yang pertama meluncurkan hybrid secara massal itu honda(ima)? waktu itu produknya insight.....coupe 1000cc baterenya masih gede pisan......

[WP]

Bukan, sebelumnya Insight ada Prius generasi pertama di 1997, sebelum itu Toyota udah ada prototipe-nya

[jetcar]

hehehe conan seems so excited about this hybrid thing..
ya memang canggih sih.
namanya juga teknologi modern, gue yakin sekali cara kerja & efisiensi yg dihasilkan pasti jauh lebih baik daripada mesin konvensional.
kecuali harganya kali yaaaaaa....

[Sithlord]

Good ! good ! I can feel your anger ! Now ! Take your lightsaber ! Strike me down with all your might !, and you will make yourself more my servant !

[Sithlord]

meow meow,

lu lebih sarcastic dari wanita yang di tinggalkan suaminya atau suaminya ada simpanan !

Really guys, I enjoyed playing in this forum. Tapi itu bau kucing makin lama makin bau ! Makin susah di hidung !

Well, perhaps if one day I leave this forum, bukan artinya I don't enjoy talking to U guys, but because U know, bau kucing itu minta ampun ! Apalagi kalau dia sudah berapa tahun ngak mandi, dan sudah main ke entah mana !

Perhaps THAT might one day make me quit this addictive forum. Benar ! Saya sudah sering pikir, ngapain sih urusin mobil orang lain ! Mau beli mobil kaleng, nil safety, nanti di mati di kecelakaan, bukan urusan saya kok ?

Mau sok kaya, jadi orang level tinggi, ya gih beli saja tuh prius ! Cuman 450 juta kok ! Tapi orang level rendah seperti saya, mau ngak mau harus pikirakan biaya rumah sakit jika anak sakit, biaya sekolah anak masa depan. Masa demi mau jadi orang level tinggi, paksa beli hybrid meskipun harganya selanggit !

Ya kalau orang level tinggi seperti kucing orang salim group mungkin yang uangnya banyak sekali, ya beli hybrid memang keren. seolah jaga lingkungaan, bantu cadangan minyak.

Tapi yang uangnya pas pasan, gimana ? Apakah harus di cap level rendah !

Kalau saya bilang, jangan sok toyota hybrid hebat ! urusin dulu mobil mereka macam innova yang catalytic converter saja belum ada ! Jangan bilang safety !

Malah berani bilang Top Gear articlenya pelacuran jounalistic. Paling penting apa yang mereka bilang betul atau tidak ! Mobil jelas RON 91 secara resmi paksa bilang pakai premium OK !

Kalau dulu saya yang himbau premium kan saya cuman orang biasa. Tapi toyota itu kan big company ! Masa mobil RON 91 bilang ama masyarakat pakai premium itu OK ! Kayak Top Gear bilang, kalau bukan bikin negara lebih miskin itu apa ?

coba kalau dari dulu toyota ngak cuman demi uber volume besar. Secara resmi ngaku, innova perlu RON 91, so pls use Pertamax. Consequensinya banyak pemilik innova pakai pertamax, dan kerugian negara akan lebih kecil. Tapi apakah toyota mau volume innova menciut ?

I have nothing against hybrids. Tapi kalau caranya tumbuh volumenya cuman gara gara subsidinya besar dan lama, apa bedanya dulu dengan anak suharto yang bisa jadi jaya soalnya ada fasilitas dari bapaknya dan negara ?

Kalau mau, seperti businessmen lain, yang tumbuh on their own merit ! Jangan tergantung subsidi doang ! Itu seperti anak orang kaya, ngak mampu jual barang dagangganya, minta bapaknya bantuan subsidi, supaya harga barangnya bisa bersaing ! Thats childish !

U want to sell hybrids ? Fine ! Don't rely on government subsidies ! And trust me, any subsidies cannot last a long time ! Sooner or later it has to end !

Oh yah ! To all the high level people here, kalau lu benar benar high level, kenapa sekarang ngak beli prius di IU ? Katanya kan jangan cuma pikirin perut doang. Harus high level, pikirkan masa depan anak kita, supaya minyak masih banyak, udara bersih ! Ayo ! Jual innova yang tanpa catalytic converter itu dan ganti prius ! I want to see how high U can go !

[conan]

For the LAST TIME, bedakan antara Green Tax dengan subsidi PAK!!!

And for the LAST TIME, jangan anggap hybrid itu harus PRIUS Pak!! Harus berapa kali sih dibilang bahwa Prius itu flagship model untuk mobil2 jenis hybrid, the real volume is in the hybrid versions of mainstream cars, like Harrier hybrid (Lexus RX400h), Accord hybrid, Camry hybrid, Alphard hybrid, Civic hybrid!

Dan siapa sih di thread ini yg memaksa Anda beli Prius?? Anda juga tidak perlu memaksa orang TIDAK BELI mobil hybrid kan??

To 'all the high level people' here??
Komentar macam apa ini, Pak? Apakah Anda ada masalah dengan orang yg lebih mampu? Kalau ada orang beli Prius Anda bilang 'kebanyakan duit', tapi kalau dia beli S-class Anda bilang 'memang S-class ada pasarnya sendiri', atau kalau dia beli Alphard atau Elgrand Anda pasti bilang 'Good choice! I juga nanti kalau mampu pasti beli satu!'

Kenapa kalau Prius Anda malah SENTIMEN, padahal sudah jelas bahwa Prius itu lebih environment-friendly daripada S-class bermesin 5000 CC atau Alphard yg sudah pasti SANGAT IRIT. Memang kenapa kalau ada orang yg memang mampu, beli Prius? Dan kalau ada orang yg ingin beli Prius tapi belum mampu, seperti aku ini, kenapa harus Anda cerca seperti itu? 'I want to see how high you can go??'

Dan kalau dia beli Serena HS seharga Rp 280 juta daripada Innova yg Rp 180 jutaan, Anda pasti bilang 'Excellent choice!'. Kalau Anda mau keluar extra Rp 100 juta untuk mobil yg sama2 7-seater, mengapa tidak boleh ada orang yg beli Prius over a Camry yg sama2 5-seater, dan beda harganya juga tidak sampai Rp 100 juta?? Camry AT sekarang sudah hampir Rp 400 juta Pak!

Prius ini BUKAN BARANG HARAM Pak, justru produk GREEN! Bukan pula BARANG MEWAH untuk pamer/gengsi seperti S-class seharga Rp 2 Milyar lebih yg jumlahnya saja sudah ratusan unit di Jkt! Mengapa Anda tidak protes tentang hal ini? Kalau ada CEO yg mengganti S-classnya dengan Prius, itu kan hal yg terpuji, bukannya tercela!

ADA APA sih dengan Anda dan TOYOTA??

NISSAN juga tahun depan akan meluncurkan model2 HYBRIDnya Pak !!

For crying out loud, Dark Lord ini semakin lama semakin keterlaluan! Fanatik benci Toyota dan cinta Nissan tidak perlu dibawa2 ke diskusi tentang hybrid dong! Toh Nissan juga BELI mesin hybrid dari Toyota!

Setiap orang bebas dong memilih mobil apa yg dia ingin beli?? Kenapa kalau beli Innova dianggap tidak sayang nyawa dan kalau beli Prius dianggap tidak sayang duit??

Betul tidak, rekan2?

[Sithlord]

Saya sudah bilang kan, ini issue seperti Vietnam, atau Iraq for the Americans. Now U know why George Bush susah sekali cabut dari Iraq ! Sudah terlanjur tenggelem.

OK. Want to be very Green are U ? Kalau gitu, seharusnya misalnya SBY pajak innova ama pajak Serena, atau Jazz di bedakan dong ? Serena misalnya ada catalytic converter, jadi lebih rama lingkungan, emisi lebih bersih ! Dan juga safety featurenya lebih aman, lingdunggi rakyat Indonesia. What will toyota think if the Serena got less tax because she is greener and saver ?

Also Jazz. Dia kan mesinnya jauh lebih irit banding innova, kalau gitu seharusnya dia dapat green tax, or incentive juga dong ?

Inggat kasus Tommy Suharto ? Dulu supaya rakyat bisa beli mobil National harga murah, bapaknya kasih mobil dia (Timor) free tax. Banyak yang protest keras kan ? Including toyota themselves ! Why ? Bukan gara gara mobilnya, tapi its not FAIR !

Nah, coba, nanti jika Tommy sudah keluar dari Nusa Kembangan. Dia sudah lebih pintar. OK. Ngak mau main mobil murah. This time misalnya dia ketemu pabrik mobil di mana kek, yang bisa bikin mobil super irit. Propulsionnya bukan hybrid, tapi some new technology yang bisa lebih irit lagi dari hybrid. Dan juga ramah lingkunggan juga.

Nah ! Since Tommy's car is so GREEN, SBY after consultation with Pak Harto, decides to give ZERO tax to Tommy's new cars. So that rakyat Indonesia bisa dapat mobil GREEN.

Nah ! Kalau gitu, memang saya juga jadi enak. TAPI, what will Toyota and Honda thought about this ? Apakah ngak protest mereka nanti ?

Kenapa sih ngak bisa make it simple. Just apply the same tax to all cars, and let the car makers fight it out fair and square among themselves ? Jika mobil satu merek benar super irit dan green on their own merit, harga terjangkau, otomatis konsumer juga akan lari ke mereka semua. TANPA embel embel green tax or whatever !

And U still forgot one thing. Itulah U refuse to read my articles which I posted from writers in USA. At the same time toyota is increasing hybrid production, they are increasing their big truck and other boros SUV production in USA at a MUCH BIGGER RATE !

Did U not miss the part where in USA, if a car manufacturer sells some super irit cars, they will then have a lower CAFE (corporate average fuel efficiency) figure ? which allows them to sell EVEN more boros big SUVs / trucks ?

toyota is just another big company looking for more sales and profits. So don't regard them as angels which are out to save the world !

Lihat sikap mereka di Indonesia. Kalau tulus / humanitarian, kenapa sajikan mobil macam avanza / innova ke kita ? Yang murah banget tapi lebih tidak aman untuk di pakai ? Kalau bukan demi uber omzet dan profit besar itu demi apa ? Tulus ? My FOOT !

Jika mereka gitu tulus, ya kan uangnya banyak. Kalau mau tolong dunia, ya jangan minta bantuan government green tax / incentive. Subsidi sendiri dari kantong mereka ! Seperti Nissan belakangan sumbang 12 mobil untuk kemanusiaan di Aceh etc. ITU baru TULUS ! No government help needed !

Well, since U refused to read the American articles I posted, I will also not read all yr long posts. See no evil, hear no evil. Easy eh !

[Sithlord]

I know our young Jedi refuses to see my USA articles, but yang lain yang inggin dapat point of view from the other side, pls read this article. Saya pernah cantumkan, tapi supaya anda tidak perlu korek dalam, inilah, sumber dari America. Toh hybrid orang America lebih ngerti dari saya. Di sini belum di jual, tapi orang Amrik yang sudah lebih ngerti, dan merekalah yang lebih bisa observasi sifat toyota di situ :

http://www.hybridcars.com/blogs/blog.ph ... number=296

Quote "

Toyota Land Cruiser (EPA city/hwy 13/17) in sand dunes: Is it delivering our great-great-grandchildren's inheritance to Saudi Arabia?

May 29, 2005: Why Won't Toyota Make More Hybrids?

Toyota is today the darling of the hybrid “cult.” Where is the healthy skepticism of the motives of corporate bosses with which environmentalists greet virtually any actions or announcements by GM, DailmerChrysler, Ford, or any American corporation? Is it that true believers can’t (or won’t) conceive of the possibility that the hybrid market leader could be motivated—Gaia forfend—to achieve aims less pure than saving the planet?

There is an element of wishful thinking in believing that hybrids would ever save enough oil to make any difference in our imports from Saudi Arabia (much less save the planet), so it is understandable to put the best public light on anything the world’s largest maker of hybrids does.

I may not be privy to all that is discussed in the inner circles of the hybrid cult, so I could be mistaken in my impression that the internal is congruent with the public face. I am open to evidence that environmentalists have questioned Toyota’s motives as skeptically and vigorously as they have questioned GM’s. But, I am from Missouri. Show me.

Let me be clear about my bias. I am unapologetically skeptical of hybrid technology. Fewer than half a million hybrids have been put on the road in the world in the last half-dozen years. There are 870 million vehicles on the world’s roads today and we have more than 100 years of experience in adapting the internal combustion engine in powering our mobility on every continent and into nearly every climate, terrain, and situation we have wanted to take our cargo and ourselves. What reasonable person would not be skeptical?

This post is not intended to discredit Toyota or its hybrid program. It is laudable to experiment with new technologies, especially by putting the new technologies into real-world service. That is where we will find out what value they have. Spreadsheet simulations and purpose-built prototypes may reveal interesting possibilities, but are ultimately incapable of choosing the technology winners. Thank you, Toyota, for your hybrid experiments.

This post is directed at those who would make Toyota’s laudable and worthwhile experiments into more than they are and who would make Toyota into more than it is. Question authority. Question motives. Question experts. Question academics. Question everything. Question everyone. Question me.

Here are some examples to begin.

Question: Toyota started advertising the Prius recently. Why advertise a car when many shoppers are going to be disappointed to discover they will have to wait for delivery? The wait was the number one complaint about the new Prius in its first year, so why advertise and give more shoppers a reason to complain?

Answer: The Prius has increased showroom traffic. With supply constrained, many Prius shoppers end up buying a Corolla, Camry, or other Toyota model. Some could even end up with a Tundra Pickup that is cheaper than the Prius but gets 16 mpg in the city and 18 on the highway. The equivalent Chevrolet Silverado gets 16/21, so you had better hope the frustrated Prius buyer goes to the Chevrolet store if he decides to go with a pickup.

And if you are thinking, "Prius shoppers would never consider a Tundra," I feel your pain. The contra-positive is "Tundra shoppers would never consider a Prius," or, to generalize, "PICKUP shoppers would never consider SMALL CARS." Welcome to my world. People have different needs and wants they are trying to satisfy when they buy vehicles. And not everyone who shops at Toyota, not even everyone who visits the store because of the ads for the Prius, shares your values.

Watch out when the Highlander is in the showroom drawing in SUV shoppers. They might just buy a 15 city/18 hwy Sequoia. Pray that they don’t but the 13/17 Land Cruiser. I leave it as an exercise for the reader to find the GM, Ford, and Chrysler equivalents with higher MPG that should make environmentalists wish they had never elevated Toyota to infallibility.

Question: If hybrids were not a good idea then why would the world’s most profitable automobile producer want to be the hybrid leader? Profit is a clear sign that they are smarter than the other companies, so anything they do has to be smart, doesn’t it?

INI BAGIAN PENTING, BACALAH !

Answer: By selling hybrids, Toyota is given a pass by environmentalists to reduce the fuel economy of their new vehicle fleet relative to GM, Ford, and DaimlerChrysler without protest. I posted data comparing Toyota and GM last week. Have the environmentalists become apologists for Toyota, overlooking their move into gas-hungry SUVs and pickups? Toyota sold twice as many Tundras as Priuses in 2004 and has been building pickups in America for years.

Toyota will build hybrid Camrys in Kentucky soon, and some environmentalist should find out whether American taxpayers are being asked to subsidize investment by the world’s most profitable automobile producer to do what is supposed to be a smart thing. Are there grounds for concluding that environmentalists are acting toward Toyota like the mainstream media act toward the Democrat party?

Question: GM’s Bob Lutz was criticized for implying that the hybrid program was mostly a Toyota public relations success. Does Lutz just not get it or what?

Answer: Hybrids have given Toyota a government relations boost in DC and California. The AP story that earned me my first hate e-mail for the quote, "Most people don't think about where their vehicles are made," was about concerns that Toyota (and Honda) expressed that the declining fortunes of Detroit automakers could inspire anti-Japanese feelings in the U.S. The hybrid program certainly is seen in DC as a “good thing,” and has let Toyota and Honda position themselves as good corporate citizens to lawmakers.

For a few years now, our government has been taxing displaced auto industry workers in Detroit and sending the money to Toyota and Honda in the form of consumer incentives to buy hybrids. How much better can their image get than that? About the only people who don’t think they are heroes are the anti-government loonies. If Congress renews the Patriot Act, then the loonies will become even more marginalized (or incarcerated).

Toyota’s image in California would also be hard to improve upon. The company’s North American headquarters are in the Los Angeles area, and Californians buy a lot of Toyotas. Toyota’s market share (including Lexus) was 19.5% in California in 2004, but only 12.2% for the U.S. overall. GM hung onto first place (20.4%) in California in 2004, but next year look for Toyota to be first in sales in California. Californians and their state government are either crazy over green or advanced environmental thinkers, depending on your bias. It makes sense that most hybrids are bought by Californian, and that a “home-state” manufacturer would benefit most from giving Californians what they want.

Question: Toyota says that the Prius is profitable. What is wrong with GM and DaimlerChrysler? Don’t they want to make profits? And why doesn’t Ford make more Escape Hybrids? Don’t they want to make profits, either?

Answer: One wishes in vain that intelligent people would be more skeptical of unverifiable claims regarding costs and profits in the post-Enron, post-Global Crossing, post-Sarbanes Oxley world. Turn the questions on Toyota: What is wrong with Toyota? Why don’t they make more hybrids than they do? Don’t they want to make profits? Why are they so slow to add capacity to build hybrids?

If you believe that hybrids are the future of the automotive industry and that Toyota makes a profit on the Prius, then what is your explanation of their strange behavior? You believe that Toyota has the silver bullet, the Holy Grail, the killer app...

…Yet, they say they are going to build only 48,000 hybrid Camrys per year while also building more than 350,000 conventional gas-only Camrys and other cars per year in their Kentucky plant. Why not 100,000 hybrids? Why not 200,000? Why not 400,000?

…Yet, they have announced that want to sell their hybrid technology to other automakers. Why sell your competition a technology that could give you an insurmountable lead over them?

You tell me.

" End of quote.

[Sithlord]

My young Jedi and other people very interested in further debate about this. Jangan cuma di SM. Nih, apa forum di Edmunds.com, website terkenal mobil di USA. Di situ debatenya lebih seru lagi. My young Jedi, why don't U join the fight there against some of the Americans ? :

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ef600b1/0

Topicnya : Are Hybrids "loss leaders" for Manufacturers?

Yang lebih galak dari bung Conan ada. Yang lebih galak dari saya juga ada. Bacalah ! Dari 1 sampai akhir halaman 18. Ikutin semua. Baru bisa dengar more views from both sides of the frontline.