Diskusi keselamatan pesawat terbang / dunia penerbangan

[ChZ]

tenang aja om turbo, accident rate nya belom ada yang bisa mengalahkan MD11 kok..A320 masih dibawah angka 1 koma..

MD11 ada di 3.78 per sejuta keberangkatan (2.1 dengan fatalities, terbanyak untuk modern widebody) (source: Boeing & Lufthansa Cargo Flight Safety Department)..udah gitu total produksi nya juga gak sebanyak DC10..populasi dikit tapi banyak accident..

Keliatan sih kalo nonton ACI kalo gak salah paling sering kena accident Douglas punya terutama MD-11

A320 sama B737 persentase accident nya lebih banyak mana ya bro ?

[htannis]

buset kalau begini caranya mau naik pesawat apa aja pasti was2an, kok kayaknya 2014 -2015 lagi banyak kecelakaan pesawat komersil yah

[haristk7]

Attention, data yang saya jabarkan ini belom mencangkup kasus AirAsia dan Germanwings

Keliatan sih kalo nonton ACI kalo gak salah paling sering kena accident Douglas punya terutama MD-11

A320 sama B737 persentase accident nya lebih banyak mana ya bro ?

737 kalo digabungkan seluruh seri mulai dari "Jurassic/Original", "Classic", hingga "NG" itu angkanya lebih dari 1 (satu) koma, penjabarannya sebagai berikut (per 1 juta keberangkatan)
1. Boeing 737-100/200 (Original) = 1.75 Accident Rate (0.89 with Fatalities)
2. Boeing 737-300/400/500 (Classic) = 0.52 Accident Rate (0.25 with Fatalities)
3. Boeing 737-600/700/800/900 (NG) = 0.26 Accident Rate (0.13 with Fatalities)
Total for Boeing 737 series = 2.53 Accident Rate

sekarang untuk Airbus A320 family (A318, A319, A320, A321) = 0.26 Accident Rate (0.16 with Fatalities)

well, karena populasi 737 jauh lebih banyak dari A320 dan 737 juga lahir di era 1960an dimana safety belom sebagus sekarang, ya wajar saja Accident rate nya angkanya tinggi dibanding Airbus, but still, both aircraft are one of the safest and reliable aircraft in the sky..

Boeing 737 Family = 8428 Pesawat (Data Januari 2015)
Airbus A320 Family = 6452 Pesawat (Data Februari 2015)

Kalo gak salah pesawatnya ini buatan tahun 90 yg berarti udah 25 tahun , pernah baca" di forum if , batas umur pakai pesawat yg di sarankan hanya 25 tahun , berarti seharusnya ini pesawat udah di phase out/grounded , benarkan om harist atau om turbo ?

Airbus A320 itu lifespannya di angka 48000 jam terbang, tapi ada program memperpanjang umur pesawat ke 60000 jam terbang, D-AIPX ini bekas pakai induknya Germanwings, Lufthansa...dan melihat history Lufthansa yang suka mempekerja-keraskan pesawatnya hingga titik akhir, pesawat ini telah melalui program "Up Grade" tersebut, D-AIPX saat kejadian telah "mengantongi" 58813 jam terbang, masih oke untuk 4000-5000 jam lagi sebelum diistirahatkan..

[haristk7]

Saya takut sekali kasus ini berbau "Suicidal"

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32063587

Marseille prosecutor Brice Robin, citing information from the "black box" voice recorder, said the co-pilot was alone in the cockpit.

He intentionally started a descent while the pilot was locked out.

Mr Robin said there was "absolute silence in the cockpit" as the pilot fought to re-enter it.

Air traffic controllers made repeated attempts to contact the aircraft, but to no avail, he said.

Passengers could be heard screaming just before the crash, he added.

The co-pilot, now named as Andreas Lubitz, 28, was alive until the final impact, the prosecutor said.

"At that moment, the co-pilot is controlling the plane by himself. While he is alone, the co-pilot presses the buttons of the flight monitoring system to put into action the descent of the aeroplane.

"This action on the altitude controls can only be deliberate."

He added: "The most plausible interpretation is that the co-pilot through a voluntary act had refused to open the cabin door to let the captain in. He pushed the button to trigger the aircraft to lose altitude. He operated this button for a reason we don't know yet, but it appears that the reason was to destroy this plane."

Analisa FR24 mengenai perubahan altitude ---> http://forum.flightradar24.com/threads/ ... at?p=64616

Between 09:30:52 and 09:30:55 we can see that the autopilot was changed from 38,000 feet to 100 feet and 9 seconds later the aircraft started to descend, probably with the "open descent" autopilot setting.

09:30:52Z.386 MCP/FMC ALT: 38000 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa
...
09:30:54Z.083 MCP/FMC ALT: 13008 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa
...
09:30:55Z.397 MCP/FMC ALT: 96 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa

pasti ada yang bertanya kenapa tidak bisa "override" dibuka paksa dari luar, well... dari --> http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forum ... 54510/1/#1 reply 210

For mode LOCK: Momentarily placing the cockpit door switch to LOCK illuminates the red cockpit access panel light, rejects keypad entry request, inhibits aural alerts, and prevents further access code entry for 20 minutes. The cockpit door switch returns to NORM when released, but remains in locked mode for 20 minutes or until UNLOCK is selected.

This is different for mode NORM: When NORM is selected, it allows the door to be locked when closed. It also allows the door to be opened after an emergency access code entry and 30 second delay in case of pilot incapacitation.

So we see once the switch is moved to LOCK the door will NOT open for 20 minutes unless the switch is put into NORM or UNLOCK

[Turboman]

Medan



Feathering

A propeller blade in feathered position

On some variable-pitch propellers, the blades can be rotated parallel to the airflow to reduce drag in case of an engine failure. This uses the term feathering, borrowed from rowing. On single-engined aircraft, whether a powered glider or turbine-powered aircraft, the effect is to increase the gliding distance. On a multi-engine aircraft, feathering the propeller on a failed engine helps the aircraft to maintain altitude with the reduced power from the remaining engines.

wiki

[Turboman]

Warga sipil bisa naik Hercules udah sejak lama

http://www.indoflyer.net/Forum/tm.asp?m=222197

[newrubble]

out of topic

ini ttg cara salah guna pesawat tni-au yg lsg atau tdk langsung punya safety impact

dulu alm ayah sy (yg saat itu tni-au active) juga punya dosa (saat itu herky ada 24 units n tiap hr route kemanapun ada)

sbg org yg suka skali car-driving tiap kita plezir kluar jakarta (misalnya solo, kupang, jayapura atau dr drive pontianak ke kuching) selalu sebisa mungkin pakai mobil pribadi atau mobil dinas diangkut dgn herky ...gratis tentu sementara fam members incl dia naik scheduled commercial

pernah bbrp x (tiujuh x) kita sekeluarga ...bertiga (anak hanya sy sendiri) ke spore bawa w-116 (ini crita thn 70n-80n) dgn license plate jakarta yg sdh di copot saat masih di base ops halim

sampai di payalebar (sampai th 1981 sebelum airport changi) sdh ada org dr kbri (biasanya staff airforce attache indo) bawa diplomatic license plate (artinya mobil diplomatic milik jabatan airforce attache tdk di pakai krn plate di pakai mobil kita) kebetulan brand n series sama spt yg dia punya

kebiasaan bawa mobil ke spore baru stop ssdh th 1989 ...mobil jabatan airforce attache indo di spore tdk lagi w-116 tapi jadi w-126

tapi itu salah n jgn di tiru

[A7Corsair]

out of topic

ini ttg cara salah guna pesawat tni-au yg lsg atau tdk langsung punya safety impact

dulu alm ayah sy (yg saat itu tni-au active) juga punya dosa (saat itu herky ada 24 units n tiap hr route kemanapun ada)

sbg org yg suka skali car-driving tiap kita plezir kluar jakarta (misalnya solo, kupang, jayapura atau dr drive pontianak ke kuching) selalu sebisa mungkin pakai mobil pribadi atau mobil dinas diangkut dgn herky ...gratis tentu sementara fam members incl dia naik scheduled commercial

pernah bbrp x (tiujuh x) kita sekeluarga ...bertiga (anak hanya sy sendiri) ke spore bawa w-116 (ini crita thn 70n-80n) dgn license plate jakarta yg sdh di copot saat masih di base ops halim

sampai di payalebar (sampai th 1981 sebelum airport changi) sdh ada org dr kbri (biasanya staff airforce attache indo) bawa diplomatic license plate (artinya mobil diplomatic milik jabatan airforce attache tdk di pakai krn plate di pakai mobil kita) kebetulan brand n series sama spt yg dia punya

kebiasaan bawa mobil ke spore baru stop ssdh th 1989 ...mobil jabatan airforce attache indo di spore tdk lagi w-116 tapi jadi w-126

tapi itu salah n jgn di tiru

Hehe ... cerita menarik oom Rubble.
Kalo boleh tau, dulu gak ikutan naik herky-nya krn pertimbangan kenyamanan ato keselamatan ... ?

[newrubble]

tdk ikut herky krn flight time duration n non-direct...mrk hrs brenti brenti di bbrp points

n alm ayah urus diplomatic delivery status sblm mobil sampai

dulu pernah satu w-116 dr bangkok "terbawa" ke halim ...yg punya alm ayah masih di parking lot korat-afb

ternyata airforce attache di bangkok yg ada sdh berahir jabatan hr itu n dia mau bawa mobil yg baru dia beli bekas ex jabatan itu ...ke jakarta

dua hr kmudian br mobil alm ayah sampai halim airbase

dulu tni-au langganan belanja parts herky non-oem di taiwan (umumnya bikinan israel atau iran u classic herky) pas sampai halim isinya macam macam mulai harley-davidson, petrof piano, bohemian crystal sampai alfaromeo spyder

smua bisa offload n sampai ke rumah owners tanpa ada import procedure n pasti nya ...100% taxfree

kalo motor / mobil màu jadi legal mudah ...daftarkan jadi mobil dinas n mundurkan tahun bikinan (umumnya motor mobil yg di bawa itu barang bekas krn tentara jaman dulu itu tdk punya wang byk) ...enam bln kmudian di beli dg prosedur "dump ex kendaraan dinas militer"

bayar sejumlah yg di minta negara (lima persen dr harga perkiraan market value) ke kas negara n surat dump di bawa ke "komdak metro jaya" utk penerbitan bpkb n stnk

udah ya ini out of topic lg

[DOHC]

hasil knkt airasia ud kluar...

cuman bahasanya tipikal pejabat sini... penuh bahasa2 teknis nan membingungkan...

ad yg bsa menjlas kan penjelasan dr knkt ini, ane gagal paham...

http://www.cnnindonesia.com/nasional/20 ... h-ke-laut/

[newrubble]

release dr indo governmental agencies (jaman sy masih involve di product liability prosecution) tdk pernah sy jadikan reference

mrk bgt blatant bela major brands ... lupa bhw mrk public services ... lupa bhw indo public itu sama dg siapapun di tempat lain ... hrs dikasih ruang u fair-n-just compensation

compensation by laws peg at max seolah nyawa lbh murah dr angka ... pdhl tempat lain peg at minimum.(tdk bole kurang dr skian)

tdk independent (sy tdk bilang mrk sampah )

[octafiantos]

hasil knkt airasia ud kluar...

cuman bahasanya tipikal pejabat sini... penuh bahasa2 teknis nan membingungkan...

ad yg bsa menjlas kan penjelasan dr knkt ini, ane gagal paham...

http://www.cnnindonesia.com/nasional/20 ... h-ke-laut/

Baca yang buat rilis media aja om, cuma 3 halaman (2 sebenernya, halaman 3 isinya catatan singkatan). Yang problem Rudder Travel Limiter. Kalimat selanjutnya ini saya cuma terusin catatan temen di airline. Intinya etelah circuit breaker dilepas > A/P (auto pilot) disengage > rudder njeplak ke kiri > roll 54 derajat > stall.

Saya ada ini dapet dari temen di Kompas Cyber.





Sent from my 2014817 using Tapatalk

[DOHC]

thanks om octa...

btw, stelah berganti dari normal law ke alternate law itu, pesawat lgs jd stall atau pelan2 sehh miring nya.. yg sampai membuat pilot jd tidak bsa koreksi... rudder bukannya bsa di kontrol manual oleh sang pilot/ co pilot yah .... cmiiw...

[alvin23]

thanks om octa...

btw, stelah berganti dari normal law ke alternate law itu, pesawat lgs jd stall atau pelan2 sehh miring nya.. yg sampai membuat pilot jd tidak bsa koreksi... rudder bukannya bsa di kontrol manual oleh sang pilot/ co pilot yah .... cmiiw...

biasanya sih kalo kasus kayak gini pilot ga sadar mod... alias beloknya pelan2... tadi kayaknya ane liat ada rudder miring 2 derajat

di kasus2 airbus susahnya kalo udah berubah dari normal law ke alternate law, kadang gaada sign nya..
tau2 udah diluar flight envelope


*kebanyakan nonton Air crash Investigation

[octafiantos]

Kalo pertanyaannya pelan pelan apa langsung mesti baca full final report. Saya udah donlod dari siang tapi belum sempat baca. Baru asumsi, kejadiannya cepet dan berkepanjangan (hanya baca dari summary hal 2 poin terakhir. Upset dan stall berkepanjangan -> kondisi di luar envelope flight -> crew ngga mungkin bisa dikoreksi.

Ga besar kok filenya kalo mau donlod, cuma 14mb an. Biasanya ada grafik altitude dari menit ke menit pas kejadian.

Sent from my 2014817 using Tapatalk

[kaze]

Ijin ikut diskusi yaaa.

Sekedar menambahkan informasi
1.contoh stall (viewer discretion advised) bs ketik "huge cargo plane stalls and falls out of the sky" on y*utu*e (how to attach video on this? sry to bother)
2.garis khatulistiwa itu termasuk dr top list area berbahaya utk penerbangan, thunderstorms 10 times more frequent and the weather can be switch on off, nice weather to bad weather in just minutes.

Sedikit share pengalaman, sy cukup sering PP sby-spore dgn berbagai airline dr GA, QZ (sebelum dibekukan), CI, SQ, dan selalu quite bumpy in the air (less bumpy for CI & SQ due to bigger size) sekitar dr selatan kalimantan sampai mendekati spore. (berhubungan dengan point 2)



*entah sy nonton dimana, atau baca drmana (sebelum laporan knkt keluar tentunya), utk kasus air asia ini kronologisnya :
1.storms ahead
-detour << makan waktu + bahan bakar (next flight pasti delay)
-climb up << request new altitude, sdh approve baru boleh naik
2.climb up not approved , semakin mendekati / masuk ke pintu storm lalu menaikkan pesawat cenderung buru2 (atau instrumen malfungsi) sehingga terjadi stall.
3.tdk dpt mengembalikan pesawat dr stall (too late to control, nose way too down vertically, n started to spin mid air)

[haristk7]

1.contoh stall (viewer discretion advised) bs ketik "huge cargo plane stalls and falls out of the sky" on y*utu*e (how to attach video on this? sry to bother)

yang kasus ini muatannya lepas dari tempatnya, bergeser semua ke belakang, center of gravity pindah ke belakang..pesawat sudah tidak bisa diselamatkan walaupun crew sudah berjuang extra keras untuk menyelamatkan pesawat..

salah satu kasus stall terkenal di Eropa..Tarom Airbus A310 di Prancis, stall dan berhasil recovery

TAROM Flight 381, an Airbus A310 registered YR-LCA flying from Bucharest to Paris Orly, went into a sudden and un-commanded nose-up position and stalled. The crew attempted to countermand the aircraft's flight control system but were unable to get the nose down while remaining on course. Witnesses saw the aircraft climb with an extreme nose-up attitude, then bank sharply left, then right, then fall into a steep dive.

Only when the dive produced additional speed was the crew able to recover steady flight. An investigation found that an overshoot of flap placard speed during approach, incorrectly commanded by the captain, caused a mode transition to flight level change.

The auto-throttles increased power and trim went full nose-up as a result. The crew's attempt at commanding the nose-down elevator could not counteract effect of stabilizer nose-up trim, and the resulting dive brought the aircraft from a height of 4,100 ft at the time of the stall to 800 ft when the crew was able to recover command. The aircraft landed safely after a second approach. There were 186 people on board.

ooh ya si QZ selain excessive roll, dia juga mendadak pitch up

here is a quick summary.

Equipment failure leads to alternate law.

Pilot flying (first officer) initially corrects rudder induced left rollbut also pitches up 15 degrees.

Aircraft climbs rapidly to FL380, stall warning followed by stall.

Pilot flying maintains full back stick to end of recording.

Stall upset recognised by Captain but no clear transfer of control.

Contrasting dual stick inputs for the most part.

pembahasan seru dan lebih lanjut ada di: http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forum ... 64367/1/#1 (Air Asia Crash - Final Report Released)



semua kebijakan bullsh*t yang dikeluarkan pasca jatuhnya QZ8501 ternyata sama sekali tidak ada hubungannya dengan jatuhnya QZ8501, terutama cuaca dan masalah briefing, itulah kalo orang terlalu terburu2 melakukan reaksi tanpa pikir panjang dan gak mau dengerin..mampus dah, makan tu kebijakan, enak kan dikasi skakmat ama knkt ?

sorry ngomongnya kasar banget, tp realita di lapangan menunjukkan "kebijakan" yang ada sekarang bener2 "downgrade" safety level penerbangan Indonesia....gak ada lagi itu namanya voluntary incident/accident report, pada gak mau kasi daripada dikasi hukuman..jadi gak ada corrective action sama sekali di lapangan..moga2 aja temuan knkt ini gak dipake buat punishment, kalo iya, Indonesia dengan jelas melanggar ICAO Annex 13 (International Civil Aviation Organization) yang intinya adalah "Setiap temuan kecelakaan pesawat terbang tidak diperbolehkan untuk menjatuhkan hukuman kepada individu/kelompok, hanya diperbolehkan untuk memberikan rekomendasi agar tidak terjadi lagi kejadian yang sama di masa depan"

Basic common sense should tell one that if you want to improve safety it's not a good idea to give harsh punishments to anyone who makes a mistake. That just results in a culture of fear where mistakes / problems are hidden, and as a result nothing can be learnt from them

by someone from Europe at http://www.airliners.net

[alvin23]

hahaha... dia biasa ngurus kereta.. bukan yang di udara...

bahkan sampe ekstrim ngurus aspek bisnisnya..
tarif batas bawah lah hahaha

itulah gaya pejabat sekarang....

"yang penting terlihat cepat, tanggap dan kerja"

[newrubble]

sy tdkmau bicara technical.... sy tdk pintar itu ... yg pintar pintar sdh byk tuh

tapi hal yg umum di indo ada dua perkara:

pertama occurrence happened ... operator untung krn hull loss and risk covered at $ 400,000,000 ( hull itself.$ 86,000,000 ... px in total seat occupied $ 30,000,000 and business loss for the rest ) ini sambil.sy baca kontraknya (allianz lead n JLT ada di posisi spt biasa ) ... jadi ibarat operator tdk perlu susah susah operate aircraft / cari wang (krn sdh total lost) sampai ahir coverage term krn future income dibayar penuh present time ... owner tdk perlu pusing jual pesawat krn pasti dibayar penuh ... masih ada margin krn flight tdk full n (ini menyenangkan mrk) montreal convention says per seat per death is $ 165,000 atau skitar $ 27,000,000 utk 165px tapi ... prevailing laws indo cuma suruh max rp. 1,250,000,000 apalagi skrg rupiah ada di bawah.... selain itu kursi kosong tetap hrs dibayar penuh (sy byk x bilang kalo di indo ada crash pasti operator untung meski dia bkn owner aircraft)

kedua ... release keluar ssdh operator (mnrt ukuran indo).lakukan sesuatu yg (dianggap) fundamental ... nah ini behavior slave nation bkn cuma indo tapi (istilah sy).non-premium thirdworld ... entah brapa tebal yg di serah terima u mahar date of release ... apalagi ada official in charge yg bilang operator sdh lakukan post occurrence fundamental change n lbh jelek lg occurrence ini cuma ditulis sbg 'incident' (minor level) pdhl yg bisa kluar idup / utuh tdk ada ... yg tdk ktmu itu ada

itu sebab manusia dg public service uniform di indo tdk sy anggap tropus homo.erectus

[kaze]

@haristk7
ijin kasih link yaa, ini referensi sy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYaW3pFluB0

^ mengenai bahaya daerah khatulistiwa dan coffin corner.

[QnetiC]

Artikel tentang 'The World's Most Dangerous Airlines' nyomot dari HT forum sebelah, walau subjektif tapi kaget juga : maskapai king kitty peringkat 1?

http://weirdandamazingtravel.about.com/ ... rlines.htm

[newrubble]

cliche statement dua tiga jam postcrash ... civilian n military indo ...

pesawat dlm keadaan laik terbang dan pilot dlm keadaan sehat jasmani rohani sblm itu

pernah dengar / baca jelas itu?

[walid_007]

Menukik terlalu tajam keatas...emang gada peringatannya ya klo batas max kemiringan pesawat brp brp gitu

[haristk7]

Menukik terlalu tajam keatas...emang gada peringatannya ya klo batas max kemiringan pesawat brp brp gitu

ada, ada master caution alarm + stall warning (stick shaker dan suara), excessive nose up attitude bisa berakibat stall makanya alarm stall kemungkinan besar ikut nyala, excessive roll movement juga akan keluar alarm "bank angle"..

upset condition: unintentional nose up attitude more than 25 degrees, nose down attitude 10 degrees, roll more than 45 degrees, and inapproriate speed within flying parameter..

[Prast84]

pagi om,

mau nanya aja kisah apa lagi yang melanda airfast khususnya md yg carter dari tanggal 26 s/d sekarang yg infonya tidak bisa terbang karena ada masalah administrasi soalnya teman yg kerja di papua balik naik sriwijaya sedangkan airfast di groundedkan sama dishub udara