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PostMessage posted...: 17 Apr 2007, 16:23 
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Bung Wardana,


Its OK ! Solusinya simple. Pakai Premium kalau gitu. NMI kan sudah uji mobil ini ribuan km dengan BBM Indonesia, dan mereka sudah resmi bilang, ini mobil pakai Premium bisa kok. Meskipun anda jelas tidak akan bisa dapat 100% power dan torsi yang maximal. Juga bisa sedikit lebih boros..


Like I said, mesin Honda Stream VTEC saya sudah minum Premium 5 tahun. Ngak ada problem tuh...


Oh, saya ada artikel lama, dedicated just for you...., ternyata di US pun ada banyak orang juga ngak tahan harga BBM oktan tinggi yang mahal, inggin turun, dan ternyata kasus mayoritas OK kok, silahkan baca :

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/200 ... mgas_x.htm


Why use premium gas when regular will do? (Premium di artikel ini artinya BBM oktan tinggi seperti Pertamax dan Pertamax Plus..., kalau premium di Amerika di sebutnya Regular...)

By James R. Healey, USA TODAY


Marti Mayne once fueled her low-octane Subaru with high-octane gas. Not now. Premium-gas prices "went sky high, and now I just use low grade" to motor around Yarmouth, Maine, where she runs a marketing business.


When prices dropped earlier this year, she stuck with cheaper fuel because "I don't think that my car runs any differently on high, medium or lower grade."


She's right. Engines designed for regular fuel don't improve on premium and sometimes run worse. And today's engines designed for premium run fine on regular, too, their makers say, though power declines slightly.


But premium lovers are passionate. "I would simply curtail driving rather than switch grades," says Bill Teater of Mount Vernon, Ohio, who puts high-test in both his Cadillacs, though only one recommends it. He's sure both the DeVille and the Escalade run rough and lack pep on regular.


Prejudice and preference aside, engineers, scientists and the federal government say there's little need for premium.


End of part 1...


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PostMessage posted...: 17 Apr 2007, 16:25 
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Part 2....

When fuel's cheap, motorists are willing to pay 20 cents or so more for premium. But as gas prices sneak back up, the mental wrangle begins anew over whether it's OK to burn cheaper, regular-grade gas.


The answer almost always is yes.


"I personally use regular even though my owner's manual says you'll get better performance with premium," says Lewis Gibbs, consulting engineer and 45-year veteran at Chevron oil company. He's chairman of Technical Committee 7 on Fuels, part of the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) Fuels & Lubricants Council. Gibbs knows gas.


"My wife runs midgrade (89 octane) in her car, and it's a turbocharged engine" meant for 91-octane premium, he says.


Premium — gasoline having an octane rating 91 or higher — is just 12.1% of sales this year, down from 13.5% in 2002, when it was 22 cents a gallon cheaper, and well below the modern high of 20.3% in 1994, when it was 49 cents cheaper, according to industry and government data. Despite the allure of premium, once they abandon it, most motorists don't come back, the data suggest.


For every dime increase in the price, sales of premium gas drop 1%, Bob Johnson, general manager of gasoline and environmental services for the 7-Eleven chain, figures, based on data back to 1998.


The main advantage of premium-grade gas is that it allows automakers to advertise a few more horsepower by designing and tuning engines to take advantage of premium's anti-knock properties. But auto engineers generally agree that if you use regular in a premium engine, the power loss is so slight, most drivers can't tell.


"I go back and forth, and I'm hard-pressed to notice" whether there's regular or premium in the tank, says Jeff Jetter, principal chemist at Honda Research and Development Americas. He drives an Acura designed for premium.


Import brands, especially, use premium fuel to distinguish their upmarket models. Most Toyotas, for instance, are designed to run on regular or midgrade, while the automaker's Lexus luxury brand prefers premium. Same with Honda and its Acura luxury line.


"Generally, the more expensive the vehicle, the higher the expectation for performance and the more the customer is willing to pay for fuel," says Pete Haidos, head of product planning for Nissan in the USA.


Actually, the price debate is nearly worthless. At 20 cents more for premium, pumping 20 gallons of it instead of regular would cost $4 more. Annually, that's a difference of $171 for a vehicle that averages 14 miles per gallon — as some big sport-utility vehicles do — and is driven 12,000 miles a year.


Gasoline retailers and refiners like high-test because it's more profitable than regular-grade gas is. The retailer paid about 8 cents more for the premium you pay 20 cents more for — though that margin can swing wildly. Refiners make a few cents a gallon more on premium than on regular when they sell to wholesale distributors.


As long as it's clean


Profit is meaningless to the modern engine, which, regardless of what's specified in the owner's manual, hardly cares what you use — as long as it's clean.


Today's engines use highly evolved versions of a device called a knock sensor to adjust settings automatically for low-octane gas. And more engine control computers have adequate memory to allow separate sets of instructions for various octanes. The engine control computers keep pushing to maximize performance on whatever grade of fuel is used.


Extreme pressure inside the cylinders causes knock, which is the sound of the pistons literally rattling inside the cylinders. Too much too long can damage the engine. A little now and then won't.


The only modern engines that should really need premium are those with superchargers, which force-feed fuel into the cylinders. "You're driving along and just tramp the gas and the knock sensor cannot sense the knock fast enough in some cases," because the supercharger boosts pressure so fast, says Bob Furey, chemist and fuels specialist at General Motors.


Burning regular when the owner's manual specifies premium won't void the warranty, nor damage the engine, even the most finicky automakers say. "You're giving up perhaps just a little bit of performance that a customer wouldn't really even notice, it's so slight," says Furey.


Automakers say they don't test premium engines on regular to check the difference, but some auto engineers estimate that power declines roughly 5%.


"We can't guarantee the vehicle will perform as specified if other than premium fuel is used," says Mercedes-Benz spokeswoman Michelle Murad. All U.S. Mercedes engines specify premium.


All Porsche engines are designed for premium, too, but it's not available everywhere. "Our cars must be able to drive all over the world, and so we are able to run on regular," says Jakob Neusser, director of powertrain development at Porsche's research and development center in Weissach, Germany. "You don't have to feel that a mechanical problem or anything else will happen" using regular gas, even in the highest-performance, regular-production Porsches.


Premium, in fact, sometimes is worse fuel than regular. It resists knock because it's harder to ignite than lower-octane fuels. As a result, some engines won't start as quickly or run as smoothly on premium, notes Gibbs, the SAE fuel expert.


High-test does have a potential fuel economy benefit. It is slightly denser than lower-octane gas, meaning there's a little more energy in a gallon. But the small difference is hard to measure in real-world use, and that same density can contribute to undesirable buildup of waste products inside the engine.


No data show that engines designed strictly for regular run better or longer on premium.


The Federal Trade Commission, in a consumer notice, emphasizes: "(I)n most cases, using a higher-octane gasoline than your owner's manual recommends offers absolutely no benefit. It won't make your car perform better, go faster, get better mileage or run cleaner."


There is "no way of taking advantage of premium in a regular-grade car," says Furey.


"There is no gain. You're wasting money," insists Jim Blenkarn, in charge of powertrains at Nissan in the USA.


"No customer should ever be deluded into thinking there's any value in buying a higher grade of octane than we specify," says Toyota's Paul Williamsen, technical expert and trainer.


But premium retains a mystique.

Even Mayne, the sensible Subaru owner who has switched to regular, says she'll buy premium when her neighborhood station has a special price. "It's my perception that I might get better gas mileage or that it might be better for my engine," she says.


"I would stop driving rather than use a lower grade of gasoline," says Andrew Martschenko of Boston, who drives a 2003 Nissan Maxima. Nissan says premium is "recommended" for that engine — automaker code for regular is OK, but you'll only get the advertised power on premium.


If the price difference between regular and premium grew to $1, Martschenko says, "Then I might consider trading down" to regular.


Guilt plays a part

Some people feel almost guilty, as if they are abusing their cars, when they don't burn premium, says gasoline retailer Jay Ricker, president of Ricker Oil of Anderson, Ind., which operates 28 stations. "They go all the way down to 87 (octane), but maybe every fourth tank they put in the good stuff."


Sam Turner has seen the appeal, too. He's president of Favorite Markets of Dalton, Ga., which operates 139 outlets in three states.


He recalls visiting one of his stations during a price war with a nearby station, which had cut the price of premium to just 4 cents more than regular, instead of the usual 20-cent difference.


"A customer was waiting and asked me if I was going to match the guy across the street. I said, 'Yeah,' and he said, 'Good. For 4 cents, I'm gonna buy super.' "


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PostMessage posted...: 17 Apr 2007, 17:47 
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Quote:
(Premium di artikel ini artinya BBM oktan tinggi seperti Pertamax dan Pertamax Plus..., kalau premium di Amerika di sebutnya Regular...)


Sithlord, rupanya sekarang Anda sudah sadar akan hal ini, ya? Ingat tidak bahwa akulah yg menjelaskannya pada Anda, dulu Anda menganggap 'premium' di luar negri adalah Premium milik Pertamina.

Btw, nada Anda berubah 180 derajat dari yang Anda teriak2an dulu :

sithlord wrote:
kecuali pemakai mesin kuno macam kapsul dan Terrano, everybody with modern engines SHOULD go for Pertamax !

Premium at 4500 its VERY VERY expensive ! mahal bok ! Mutu gitu jelek kok cuman beda 10% ama bensin CBU pun !

Think about that !


Bukankah mesin HR15DE maupun MR18DE termasuk mesin 'modern'?
..Apakah ini karena Anda sedang gencar2nya mempromosikan mobil Nissan yang oleh NMI 'diizinkan' minum premium?

Btw, di artikel yang Anda muat sendiri di atas, menyebutkan :

Quote:
As long as it's clean


Profit is meaningless to the modern engine, which, regardless of what's specified in the owner's manual, hardly cares what you use — as long as it's clean.


Nah, masalahnya, perbedaan terbesar antara premium buatan Pertamina, dengan bensin regular luar negri, adalah tingkat cleanlinessnya. Premium Pertamina masih tinggi kadar sulfurnya dan juga ada pengotor lainnya. Kalau regular di luar negri, sama bersihnya dengan yang premium high octane, hanya angka octanenya lebih rendah saja.

Alasan NMI memperbolehkan Livina minum premium adalah sama dengan ketika dulu mereka memasang iklan di media massa bahwa Serena boleh minum premium, yaitu karena demi menjaga angka penjualan semata.

Bukan karena mereka sebaiknya minum premium atau bahwa premium bisa sama baiknya dengan Pertamax.

Bukan berarti Livina tidak boleh diisi dengan premium, tapi ini harus dibedakan antara yang recommended dan yang tolerable (masih bisa).

Jangan karena demi promosi, apapun dijustifikasi begitu saja. Yang mau pakai Pertamax, OK besar tapi yang mau pakai Premium juga mendapat OK yang tidak kalah besarnya.

Setiap keputusan tentu ada konsekuensinya, dan ini perlu disadari oleh setiap pemilik Livina yang memutuskan untuk menggunakan premium saja. Selain lebih boros per Kilometernya, jika setelah beberapa lama kondisi mesin tidak sebagus Livina yang minum Pertamax, tidak bisa complaint pada siapapun kecuali diri sendiri karena inilah konsekuensinya..


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PostMessage posted...: 17 Apr 2007, 18:01 
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maap agak OoT dikit, Jazz VTEC gw rekomendasinya RON88, tapi sekarang ini uda langganan minum Jus Super nya Shell yg 92... ini baik ataukah pemborosan?

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PostMessage posted...: 17 Apr 2007, 18:02 
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Welcome back again bung conan


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PostMessage posted...: 17 Apr 2007, 18:03 
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Welcome back again bung conan. Wah anda tetap ingat ya topik apa yang anda seterukan dengan bung lord.


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PostMessage posted...: 17 Apr 2007, 18:31 
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Winata wrote:
Welcome back again bung conan. Wah anda tetap ingat ya topik apa yang anda seterukan dengan bung lord.


Tentu saja, karena dulu Sithlord itu paling anti premium, terutama waktu zaman semua Nissan direkomendasikan NMI minum Pertamax. Sekarang setelah Livina 'diperbolehkan' minum premium, ya berubah 180 derajat.

Anda dulu belum jadi member, tapi Sithlord itu selalu berubah 180 derajat setiap beberapa waktu. Dulu menganggap airbag itu benda tidak berguna, lalu berbalik memuja2 airbag karena semua mobil Nissan waktu itu memiliki airbag, sekarang tidak kedengaran lagi ttg airbag karena kebanyakan varian Livina ternyata tidak memiliki airbag.

Dulu mencerca proyek IMV Toyota (Innova), lalu berbalik memuji proyek IMV milik Nissan (AUV yang tidak lain adalah Livina skrg). Heran, padahal IMV dan AUV ini benar2 sama persis konsepnya.

Selama ada kaitannya dengan sebuah merk tertentu ini, ya begitulah. Pokoknya semua mobil Nissan itu sempurna dan harus dibeli setiap orang.

Sementara kenyataan berbicara lain.. :

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/200 ... ssan_N.htm


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PostMessage posted...: 17 Apr 2007, 19:01 
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Winata wrote:
Welcome back again bung conan


Btw, Mr. Winata, aku dengar engine compartment Chevrolet Captiva sangat rapi, no visible cables, no hoses. Biasanya yg begini kan mesin diesel modern. I was wondering about the petrol version, apakah sama rapinya..?


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PostMessage posted...: 17 Apr 2007, 19:16 
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conan wrote:
...........Pokoknya semua mobil Nissan itu sempurna dan harus dibeli setiap orang.

Sementara kenyataan berbicara lain.. :

"............Nissan recently ceded its spot as Japan's second-largest automaker to Honda, and has struggled to boost profits amid sagging sales. A lack of new models hurt U.S. sales and compounded wider problems such as tough competition and spiraling commodity costs............"


Masalah sempurna atau tdk sebenernya tergantung kebutuhan masing2 individu....
Tapi masalah penurunan penjualan worldwide kan bukan berarti produk2 Nissan tdk sempurna, memang kebetulan Honda & Toyota punya line up
yg lebih komplit, seperti misalnya Camry yg disukai di US sana....

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PostMessage posted...: 17 Apr 2007, 19:35 
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Mike wrote:
conan wrote:
...........Pokoknya semua mobil Nissan itu sempurna dan harus dibeli setiap orang.

Sementara kenyataan berbicara lain.. :

"............Nissan recently ceded its spot as Japan's second-largest automaker to Honda, and has struggled to boost profits amid sagging sales. A lack of new models hurt U.S. sales and compounded wider problems such as tough competition and spiraling commodity costs............"


Masalah sempurna atau tdk sebenernya tergantung kebutuhan masing2 individu....
Tapi masalah penurunan penjualan worldwide kan bukan berarti produk2 Nissan tdk sempurna, memang kebetulan Honda & Toyota punya line up
yg lebih komplit, seperti misalnya Camry yg disukai di US sana....


Nissan punya Altima yang menjadi pesaing Camry di USA, tapi penjualannya anjlok karena kalah bersaing dengan Camry dan Accord. Tanya kenapa? Selain kualitas, juga karena Nissan terlambat dalam meluncurkan Altima hybrid karena mereka bersikeras vs hybrid tapi akibatnya mereka dihukum pasar, dan kini Nissan berubah sikap 180 derajat. Selain menyiapkan banyak mobil hybrid, mereka juga kini menanamkan investasi besar ke battery Lithium-Ion untuk model2 hybrid mereka. Tampaknya mereka mulai BELAJAR dari kesalahannya.

Di Jepang juga mereka kini sudah tergeser menjadi no.2 dan pertumbuhan penjualan jauh di bawah tahun-tahun dahulu.

Tahun 2000an dimana Nissan melaporkan profit yang spektakuler, ternyata didapatkan dari mengorbankan kualitas material dan build quality. Dalam dunia industri otomotif yang sudah begitu efisien, apalagi pabrikan Jepang, profit memang tidak bisa mendadak 'besar' tanpa ada sesuatu yang di-compromised :

Quote:
TOKYO (AP) — Nissan does not expect to hit its global sales target of 4.2 million vehicles by the end of March 2009, and has given itself another year to hit that goal, news reports said Sunday.
Nissan was forced to extend the target deadline because demand for its cars in Japan and the United States has fallen short of expectations, the Yomiuri Shimbun newspaper said.

The company now aims to achieve 4.2 million vehicle sales by the end of March 2010, the report said.

Japan's No. 3 carmaker has not missed a sales target in its seven years under Carlos Ghosn, chief executive at Nissan and Renault, who is expected to announce the revised plan later this month, the Nikkei business daily said.

The target was initially set in 2005 as part of a three-year plan, in which Ghosn promised to maintain hefty profit margins and boost annual sales by 820,000 in about four years.

Nissan warned in February that it might not achieve its full-year sales target of 3.7 million vehicles, the Yomiuri said.

The woes at Nissan, which is 44% owned by Renault SA of France, underlined the diverging fortunes of the automaker and its archrivals Toyota Motor Corp. and Honda Motor Co., which have both notched up record earnings and boosted market share in the United States and elsewhere.

Nissan recently ceded its spot as Japan's second-largest automaker to Honda, and has struggled to boost profits amid sagging sales. A lack of new models hurt U.S. sales and compounded wider problems such as tough competition and spiraling commodity costs.


Setelah pasar merasakan quality yang turun, Nissan dihukum pasar dan kini mereka sedang berusaha memulihkan brand image. Tapi, tidak akan ada lagi profit yang spektakuler, karena mereka telah menyadari kesalahan mereka sendiri. Mengorbankan quality dan menurunkan harga jual bisa mendatangkan short-term profit, tapi justru berakibat buruk bagi long-term profitability. :e-naughty:

Semoga saja kita tidak melihat hal yang sama dengan Livina, yang keberadaannya telah menghapus sama sekali kemungkinan Nissan memasukkan model2 kelas satu mereka seperti Serena C25 dan Nissan Note (untuk dua varian ini, tidak mungkin ada varian tanpa satupun airbag. Nissan memiliki standar untuk model2 yg dipasarkan secara global).. sayang sekali, karena kalau saja mereka tidak membuat Livina, Serena C25 dapat mulai dirakit menggantikan C24 dan dijual dengan harga Rp 240-290 juta (CT dan HS), tidak mahal seperti IU dan Note juga bisa dijual dengan harga Livina 4-seater nantinya (Rp 130 jutaan)..

Contoh saja, Honda Fit dan Toyota Ist yang CBU harganya di atas Rp 200 juta, tapi kalau dirakit lokal, harga jual bisa ditekan sampai 70%-nya atau sekitar Rp 130-140 jutaan). Serena C25 CBU = Rp 410 jutaan, kalau dirakit lokal bisa jadi Rp 290 jutaan, tidak jauh dr C24 karena harga model baru untuk varian yg sama memang tidak akan naik terlalu besar : contoh; Kijang ke Innova, old CRV ke new CRV, dll


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PostMessage posted...: 17 Apr 2007, 20:05 
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conan wrote:
.......
Tahun 2000an dimana Nissan melaporkan profit yang spektakuler, ternyata didapatkan dari mengorbankan kualitas material dan build quality. Dalam dunia industri otomotif yang sudah begitu efisien, apalagi pabrikan Jepang, profit memang tidak bisa mendadak 'besar' tanpa ada sesuatu yang di-compromised :
.......


mengorbankan kualitas material dan build quality??
ada artikel/sumber terkait hal ini?

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PostMessage posted...: 17 Apr 2007, 22:08 
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Btw, Mr. Winata, aku dengar engine compartment Chevrolet Captiva sangat rapi, no visible cables, no hoses. Biasanya yg begini kan mesin diesel modern. I was wondering about the petrol version, apakah sama rapinya..?


Gasoline 2.4 juga rapi tuh, tapi bukan itu yang takutkan waktu masuk indo tetapi fitur2nya apa bisa sama persis dengan yang thailand. I hope deh.


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PostMessage posted...: 18 Apr 2007, 08:42 
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Welcome back Bung Conan, kemana nih selama ini ?

Quote:
Contoh saja, Honda Fit dan Toyota Ist yang CBU harganya di atas Rp 200 juta, tapi kalau dirakit lokal, harga jual bisa ditekan sampai 70%-nya atau sekitar Rp 130-140 jutaan). Serena C25 CBU = Rp 410 jutaan, kalau dirakit lokal bisa jadi Rp 290 jutaan, tidak jauh dr C24 karena harga model baru untuk varian yg sama memang tidak akan naik terlalu besar : contoh; Kijang ke Innova, old CRV ke new CRV, dll


Bung Conan, Honda Fit apa bisa dikategorikan juga product global ? Kan setelah di CKD kan di Indopun tetap aja ada beberapa yang di spec down.


Sampe sekarangpun saya tetap aja gak bisa mengambil perbedaan yang prinsip mengenai produk global dan produk non global dan produk kelas satu dan produk non kelas satu.


Apakah product global itu harusnya tidak berasal dari Indo dan Asia, sehingga contoh Livina ini yang baru di launch di 2 negara (China & Indo) tidak termasuk produk global ?


Contoh lagi new CRV & new x-trail krn di launch di Eropa dulu, walaupun setelah masuk ke Indo new CRV juga ada bagian yang di spec down juga masih dianggap produk global ?


So IMHO, produk dari pabrikan manapun (Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Suzuki dll) global or not global pasti poin yang penting sebelum dilaunch adalah target PASARnya, produknya harus menyesuaikan dengan pasarnya . Bukan malah sebaliknya, PASARnya di drive oleh produknya walaupun produk itu adalah produk global.


So, kalau produk global tapi kalau pasarnya tidak acceptable produk tersebut (tentunya setelah pabrikan melakukan riset yang mendalam) bisa jadi produk global tsb akan dihukum pasar juga dan gak sukses. Pasti ini jadi pertimbangan yang mendalam bagi pabrikan.


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PostMessage posted...: 18 Apr 2007, 09:09 
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Mike wrote:
conan wrote:
.......
Tahun 2000an dimana Nissan melaporkan profit yang spektakuler, ternyata didapatkan dari mengorbankan kualitas material dan build quality. Dalam dunia industri otomotif yang sudah begitu efisien, apalagi pabrikan Jepang, profit memang tidak bisa mendadak 'besar' tanpa ada sesuatu yang di-compromised :
.......


mengorbankan kualitas material dan build quality??
ada artikel/sumber terkait hal ini?


Silakan baca2 sendiri :

http://www.serayamotor.com/diskusi/view ... ght=nissan


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PostMessage posted...: 18 Apr 2007, 09:12 
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conan wrote:
Tahun 2000an dimana Nissan melaporkan profit yang spektakuler, ternyata didapatkan dari mengorbankan kualitas material dan build quality. Dalam dunia industri otomotif yang sudah begitu efisien, apalagi pabrikan Jepang, profit memang tidak bisa mendadak 'besar' tanpa ada sesuatu yang di-compromised :

Quote:
TOKYO (AP) — Nissan does not expect to hit its global sales target of 4.2 million vehicles by the end of March 2009, and has given itself another year to hit that goal, news reports said Sunday.
Nissan was forced to extend the target deadline because demand for its cars in Japan and the United States has fallen short of expectations, the Yomiuri Shimbun newspaper said.

Nissan recently ceded its spot as Japan's second-largest automaker to Honda, and has struggled to boost profits amid sagging sales. A lack of new models hurt U.S. sales and compounded wider problems such as tough competition and spiraling commodity costs.


Setelah pasar merasakan quality yang turun, Nissan dihukum pasar dan kini mereka sedang berusaha memulihkan brand image. Tapi, tidak akan ada lagi profit yang spektakuler, karena mereka telah menyadari kesalahan mereka sendiri. Mengorbankan quality dan menurunkan harga jual bisa mendatangkan short-term profit, tapi justru berakibat buruk bagi long-term profitability. :e-naughty:

Sori nih, stlh saya baca berulang2, saya kok ga membaca adanya kata2/berita yg menunjukkan bahwa kualitas Nissan itu dikorbankan (turun) ?
'fallen short of expectations' gak berarti konsumen kecewa dlm hal kualitas. harapan konsumen bisa saja dlm hal2 lain, misal new model, fitur, dll. please CMIIW.
'spiraling comodity costs' juga gak berarti kualitas dikorbankan. well, saya gak tau dengan pasti. yg jelas dr tulisan berita itu, gak memberi petunjuk ke arah itu.

Quote:
Semoga saja kita tidak melihat hal yang sama dengan Livina, yang keberadaannya telah menghapus sama sekali kemungkinan Nissan memasukkan model2 kelas satu mereka seperti Serena C25 dan Nissan Note (untuk dua varian ini, tidak mungkin ada varian tanpa satupun airbag. Nissan memiliki standar untuk model2 yg dipasarkan secara global).. sayang sekali, karena kalau saja mereka tidak membuat Livina, Serena C25 dapat mulai dirakit menggantikan C24 dan dijual dengan harga Rp 240-290 juta (CT dan HS), tidak mahal seperti IU dan Note juga bisa dijual dengan harga Livina 4-seater nantinya (Rp 130 jutaan)..
justru gua berharap Livina jangan dihapuskan deh, soalnya yg gua hadapin yg sdh ada aja deh, gak usah berharap muluk2. skrng Livina sdh dibuat cukup bagus, meskipun tanpa airbag dll. nah kalo Livina gak dibuat/dimasukkan ke Indonesia, apakah berarti (ada kepastian) bahwa Note akan dibuat CKD di Indonesia? Dan kalaupun di CKD di indonesia, apakah berarti akan FULL FEATURE ? Dan kalaupun full feature, apakah harganya akan didapatkan pd 130jt juga ? The point is, itu hanya spekulasi/perkiraan. Note sendiri scr fisik lebih kecil dr Livina. (edited: maksud saya segmen Grand Livina gak bisa digantikan Note) Saya sih awam, tapi mungkin bung Conan pasti lebih tau seluk beluknya, sehingga berani memperkirakan begitu.

Lalu kenapa Nissan memutuskan menciptakan Livina untuk pasar yg cukup besar yaitu Cina dan Indonesia? Padahal biaya mengembangkan produk baru lebih besar drpd cuman bawa produk yg sudah ada dan di CKD di negri Cina kan? Oke, lupakan Livina Indonesia yg gak full feature. Tapi yg Livina Cina, cukup full feature.

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Contoh saja, Honda Fit dan Toyota Ist yang CBU harganya di atas Rp 200 juta, tapi kalau dirakit lokal, harga jual bisa ditekan sampai 70%-nya atau sekitar Rp 130-140 jutaan). Serena C25 CBU = Rp 410 jutaan, kalau dirakit lokal bisa jadi Rp 290 jutaan, tidak jauh dr C24 karena harga model baru untuk varian yg sama memang tidak akan naik terlalu besar : contoh; Kijang ke Innova, old CRV ke new CRV, dll

Honda Fit, di CKD mana dapat 130-140jt ? Mungkin dulu, waktu baru keluar. tapi sekarang?


Last edited by hunter on 18 Apr 2007, 09:23, edited 1 time in total.

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PostMessage posted...: 18 Apr 2007, 09:14 
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Oke bung Conan, saya sdh baca artikel terkait soal Altima. thanks.


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PostMessage posted...: 18 Apr 2007, 09:31 
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Sebuah produk kelas satu dari produsennya, adalah produk yang berani mereka jual di pasar2 terbesarnya, terutama pasar domestik pabrikan itu sendiri. Sebagai produk kelas satu, tentu menjadi kebanggaan bagi mereka untuk menjualnya pada bangsanya sendiri dan bukan hanya pada bangsa lain yang daya belinya lebih rendah saja.

Honda Fit, CRV, Nissan X-Trail, semua dijual di Jepang, Amerika Utara, Eropa, dan Asia termasuk Asia Tenggara. Setiap pergantian model ke generasi baru, pasar2 ini akan segera mendapatkannya.

Satu hal tentang pabrikan2 mobil Jepang. Bangsa Jepang sangat nasionalis dan menganggap pasar domestiknya sendiri adalah pasar yang paling penting, dan hanya akan memberikan yang terbaik bagi bangsa mereka sendiri.

Sampai Innova, Avanza, dan Livina dijual di Jepang dan tersedia di website Toyota dan Nissan, mereka adalah produk kelas dua yang dirancang khusus untuk dijual di pasar yang haus akan mobil lebih murah, muat banyak orang, dan tidak perlu banyak safety feature (lots and lots of money to be made in these markets).

Jelas bahwa tidak satupun dari Avanza, Innova atau Livina, sudah memenuhi standar Toyota/Nissan sendiri untuk dijual di pasar domestiknya sendiri.

Mungkin ada yang sulit menerima hal ini, tapi kenyataannya, produk2 kelas dua ini tidak akan dijual di pasar Jepang sendiri. Contoh saja, petinggi Nissan sendiri yang mengatakan bahwa kasta Livina adalah di bawah model2 lain seperti Toyota Wish, dan bahwa kasta Livina adalah kelas Innova dan Avanza :

Quote:
- In developing the Grand Livina, as it is called in Indonesia, the target model was the Toyota Avanza as well as the Innova, the top-sellers there. According to Satoshi Matsutomi, Chief Product Specialist for the model, the product planners aimed to produce a rival which offered better comfort at an affordable price. They actually focussed more on the Innova, a larger model, which was the best-seller in Indonesia, continuing the success of the original Kijang.

“However, since the time we began development of the Grand Livina, economic conditions in Indonesia have changed and it appears that the Avanza has become much more popular than the Innova so we need to take a new look at our positioning,” he revealed.

- Mr Matsutomi said that the Grand Livina is not intended to compete with the Honda Stream, Mazda5 and Toyota Wish as these are more upmarket in concept. “In China, the main competitor for the Grand Livina is the Mazda Premacy (the predecessor of the Mazda5),” he said.

- It is believed that Nissan is also looking at the HR16DE 1.6-litre engine as another option for the Grand Livina, perhaps for certain markets.

- With regard to load capacity, Mr Matsutomi said that the suspension is good enough for the loads that are expected for the Grand Livina. He agreed that a chassis frame handles loads well but explained that the Grand Livina was developed with comfort in mind and a monocoque chassis is better in that respect. He did not think that there would be any issues with load-carrying even with seven persons on board.

- The cheaper versions don’t have airbags and even the most expensive comes with only a single airbag. But that’s what Indonesian customers are satisfied with at this time so Nissan is not making the Grand Livina cost more than it needs to be by adding a second airbag. Nevertheless, the provision is there for a passenger airbag which most likely will be needed in the Malaysian market. The point here is that Nissan has planned for this additional airbag whereas in the Avanza, it’s apparent that the passenger airbag was not originally planned (you can tell from the way the cover is not flush on the dashboard).


Juga, silakan pay attention pada bagian ini :

Quote:
The cheaper versions don’t have airbags and even the most expensive comes with only a single airbag. But that’s what Indonesian customers are satisfied with at this time so Nissan is not making the Grand Livina cost more than it needs to be by adding a second airbag.


Livina bahkan tidak dirancang untuk dual airbags, apakah ini pantas disebut produk global? Bahkan untuk pasar Malaysia pun, yang mewajibkan dual airbags, Livina yang akan diekspor kesana akan diubah dulu secara khusus agar bisa dilengkapi the second airbag.

Apakah Nissan ada rencana mengekspor Livina ke pasar Jepang? Never.
Quote:
yang penting sebelum dilaunch adalah target PASARnya, produknya harus menyesuaikan dengan pasarnya


Untuk yg satu ini, aku setuju saja dan ini adalah pintar2nya pabrikan mengambil keuntungan extra dari kebutuhan pasar tertentu. Makanya untuk pasar Indo, sebagian besar Livina, Avanza dan Innova yang dijual, tidak perlu diberi airbag, bahkan walaupun hanya satu saja di bagian pengemudi sebagai standar (karena pada tabrakan, benturan dengan stir sangat berbahaya). Buat apa juga, hanya bikin mahal saja dan nanti malah kurang laku kalau semua varian dipasang airbag.

Dalam hal mengeruk keuntungan, aku salut pada Toyota dan Nissan tapi kalau bahkan mereka pun tidak ada niat mengedukasi masyarakat tentang pentingnya safety, then who will..? :(


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PostMessage posted...: 18 Apr 2007, 09:33 
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hunter wrote:
Oke bung Conan, saya sdh baca artikel terkait soal Altima. thanks.


Kalau Anda sudah baca, tolong edit posting Anda di atas yang Anda muat sebelum membaca artikel tersebut, thanks.


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PostMessage posted...: 18 Apr 2007, 09:38 
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conan wrote:
Dalam hal mengeruk keuntungan, aku salut pada Toyota dan Nissan tapi kalau bahkan mereka pun tidak ada niat mengedukasi masyarakat tentang pentingnya safety, then who will..? :(


Tentu saja itu tugasnya Dephub/KNKT? wakakakakakakakak, tunggu deh taun 2030 :lol:


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PostMessage posted...: 18 Apr 2007, 09:39 
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conan wrote:
hunter wrote:
Oke bung Conan, saya sdh baca artikel terkait soal Altima. thanks.


Kalau Anda sudah baca, tolong edit posting Anda di atas yang Anda muat sebelum membaca artikel tersebut, thanks.

IMHO gak apalah.
Yg anda lakukan adalah anda berasumsi bahwa penurunan target sales Nissan scr global diakibatkan oleh penurunan kualitas produk Nissan, dengan mereferensi masalah pd Altimas dan Sentra di AMERIKA.
Yg saya pertanyakan adl pd berita AP Tokyo, apakah pd berita, ada indikasi bhw penurunan sales secara GLOBAL adl akibat kualitas yg menurun. itu saja.


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PostMessage posted...: 18 Apr 2007, 09:44 
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Honda Fit, di CKD mana dapat 130-140jt ? Mungkin dulu, waktu baru keluar. tapi sekarang?


Ok, say Rp 150 jutaan. My point is, perbedaan harga besar antara mobil yg masih CBU dan yg sudah CKD, bisa mencapai 30%. Dulu, Nissan menjual X-Trail masih CBU dengan mesin hanya 2.0L, harga di atas Rp 300 juta. Setelah CKD, bisa jual yang 2.5L dengan harga di bawah Rp 300 juta dan bahkan sekarang pun, yang 2.0L muncul lagi dengan harga very affordable. Applause untuk strategi Nissan dengan X-Trail mereka :e-clap:

Tapi keputusan mereka untuk meniru langkah Toyota dengan proyek IMV mereka, that I do not applaud :(

Aku dulu berharap, Nissan bisa menjadi seperti atau bahkan lebih eksklusif dari Honda, sebagai brand Jepang yg upmarket dan tidak jualan produk semacam 'Kijang' atau 'adik Kijang' (= Avanza) pada masyarakat Indonesia.

Sekarang, TAM dan NMI saling berebut menjual 'Kijang' mereka pada masyarakat Indonesia, no matter how fancy their name is.

Sekarang jika ke showroom Toyota/Nissan, yang mendominasi daftar harga adalah harga Avanza/Innova/Livina dari tipe A, B, C, sampai G :?


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PostMessage posted...: 18 Apr 2007, 09:45 
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andihp wrote:
conan wrote:
Dalam hal mengeruk keuntungan, aku salut pada Toyota dan Nissan tapi kalau bahkan mereka pun tidak ada niat mengedukasi masyarakat tentang pentingnya safety, then who will..? :(


Tentu saja itu tugasnya Dephub/KNKT? wakakakakakakakak, tunggu deh taun 2030 :lol:

BETUL!
Saya pribadi sih gak mengharapkan produsen melakukan edukasi itu, terlepas apakah dia itu Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Ford, GM, Hyundai, KIA, Porsche, Ferrari, dll.
Kalopun ada produsen otomotif yg melakukan pendidikan kpd masyarakat, itupun hanyalah krn produsen mencari SIMPATI konsumen/masyarakat. Itulah yg disebut2 SOCIAL RESPONSIBILITY. Pdhal, yg namanya produsen, pd intinya adl BISNIS AS USUAL.


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PostMessage posted...: 18 Apr 2007, 10:06 
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conan wrote:


Dalam hal mengeruk keuntungan, aku salut pada Toyota dan Nissan tapi kalau bahkan mereka pun tidak ada niat mengedukasi masyarakat tentang pentingnya safety, then who will..? :(


They will do it when the market become perpect competition. Wrong, I mean, the market will.

So, itu sebabnya saya dukung Livina (walaupun baru sebatas cuap..cuap doang..ha..ha..). Bukan berarti ini mobil impian di mata gw, tapi setidaknya agar Toyota merasa terancam dan mengeluarkan produk2 terbaiknya tanpa menaikkan harga.... :D Let's create the evil for TAM.

Mirip cerita silat jaman dulu, kalo nggak ada lawan seimbang, jurus yg keluar pun paling jurus ecek-ecek, tenaga dalam pun cuman 1/4 dikeluarkan. Kalo mo liat jurus simpanan warisan dari kakek guru, carikan dia lawan tangguh... :D


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PostMessage posted...: 18 Apr 2007, 10:13 
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conan wrote:
Ok, say Rp 150 jutaan. My point is, perbedaan harga besar antara mobil yg masih CBU dan yg sudah CKD, bisa mencapai 30%. Dulu, Nissan menjual X-Trail masih CBU dengan mesin hanya 2.0L, harga di atas Rp 300 juta. Setelah CKD, bisa jual yang 2.5L dengan harga di bawah Rp 300 juta dan bahkan sekarang pun, yang 2.0L muncul lagi dengan harga very affordable. Applause untuk strategi Nissan dengan X-Trail mereka :e-clap:

Betul dengan CKD, harga bisa ditekan, krn pajak import sdh ga ada dan konten lokal dipakai, dll.

Quote:
Tapi keputusan mereka untuk meniru langkah Toyota dengan proyek IMV mereka, that I do not applaud :(

Tapi, saya rasa bukan berarti membuat produk yg spesifik untuk pasar Indonesia/Asia dll artinya membuat produk yg lebih jelek. well, ini bisa diperdebatkan, krn toh saya bukan yg terlibat dlm produksinya dan andapun juga bukan (atau anda terlibat?). Maksudnya, memang kayak A/X, produknya lebih jelek. Atau, mungkin dimata anda, Livina produknya kualitasnya kurang. Tapi itu semua balik2 lagi ke produsennya aja. Mau bikin produk IMV berkualitas, PASTI BISA. Saya rasa, ada uang ada barang.

Quote:
Aku dulu berharap, Nissan bisa menjadi seperti atau bahkan lebih eksklusif dari Honda, sebagai brand Jepang yg upmarket dan tidak jualan produk semacam 'Kijang' atau 'adik Kijang' (= Avanza) pada masyarakat Indonesia.

Sekarang, TAM dan NMI saling berebut menjual 'Kijang' mereka pada masyarakat Indonesia, no matter how fancy their name is.

Ini sih tergantung persepsi kita masing2. Dalam kasus Xenia/Avanza, bagi mereka2 yg mau punya mobil pribadi, tapi kantong cuman bisa 100jtan, yah itu adl suatu 'berkat' bagi mereka. Sekalipun Jazz dianggap sdh cukup murah, 144-160jt, tetep saja ada mereka2 yang hanya sanggup beli A/X, sesuai kantong dan kebutuhan, yaitu mau muat orang banyak dan barang banyak. Memang kasian... saya juga patut dikasihani...hehehe

Maksud saya, diluar masalah pangsa pasar, masalahnya bukan pd apakah itu produk ekslusif Jepang, Eropa. Tapi, apakah produk non Jepang n Eropa itu bisa dibuat berkualitas atau tidak. Ya itu, ada uang ada barang. Dan, kalau betul Livina nantinya akan dijual ke pasar eropa dan US (ENTAH BENER atau ENGGA), berarti produk Livina dianggap cukup baik, terlepas apakah nanti yg dijual adl produk pabrik Indonesia/bukan. Kalo bukan hasil pabrik Indonesia, at least berarti designnya/konsepnya itu cukup baik untuk menjadi produk eropa dan US juga.


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PostMessage posted...: 18 Apr 2007, 10:17 
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uch wrote:
So, itu sebabnya saya dukung Livina (walaupun baru sebatas cuap..cuap doang..ha..ha..). Bukan berarti ini mobil impian di mata gw, tapi setidaknya agar Toyota merasa terancam dan mengeluarkan produk2 terbaiknya tanpa menaikkan harga.... :D Let's create the evil for TAM.

Mirip cerita silat jaman dulu, kalo nggak ada lawan seimbang, jurus yg keluar pun paling jurus ecek-ecek, tenaga dalam pun cuman 1/4 dikeluarkan. Kalo mo liat jurus simpanan warisan dari kakek guru, carikan dia lawan tangguh... :D

Betul, dan nanti kalau Honda bisa/mampu mengeluarkan jurus untuk melawan Livina dengan harga reasonable dan kualitas yang lebih baik. kenapa tidak? justru lebih bagus buat konsumen. Justru stream sdh di CKD, tapi tidak berhasil membuat gebrakan tuh. krn harganya tetep mahal buat konsumen Indonesia. :)


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